7 ms·

> the incremental gains we're seeing with each new phone cycle are almost unnoticeable I don't think so. As someone with a whole lot of expensive "real" camera

by sho 9y ago

> the incremental gains we're seeing with each new phone cycle are almost unnoticeable I don't think so. As someone with a whole lot of expensive "real" camera gear, I was astonished - and I don't really say that lightly - with what I saw a friend getting out of her iphone 7+. If three years ago you had shown me some of these images I would have sworn they were taken by at least five grand worth of gear, expertly used. And by all reports the 8 is another giant step up. This techcrunch review tells the story: https://techcrunch.com/2017/09/19/review-iphone-8/ https://techcrunch.com/2017/09/19/review-iphone-8/ I find this all incredibly exciting. It reminds me of the great democratisation of electronic music, where all of a sudden you didn't need $30k worth of hardware synths to make music - a single computer would do. A cambrian explosion of creativity ensued. High quality and highly capable cameras - and video cameras - in the hands of the masses? Bring it on I say! How many thousands, if not millions, of incredible, moving, moment-defining images will be captured now we don't need a pro photographer on hand to do justice to a scene? If we're gonna have cameras in smartphones - and we're gonna - they may as well be good, and Apple is setting the pace - and forcing down the price. Good on them.

jcmoscon 9y ago
I agree. The 7 plus camera is amazing!
snuxoll 9y ago
The camera upgrade is really the one thing that has be one the edge of upgrading my 7+ to an 8+, I'll still probably wait until next year's model. I'm still considering getting a full-format mirrorless system someday, because even with as great as smartphone cameras are getting there's only so much you can do with an image sensor the size of a pea - but damned if they don't take good looking pictures regardless.
- ghaff 9y ago
  DSLRs plus skill plus lenses plus effort still produce the more interesting photos under the broadest range of circumstances. But smartphone cameras definitely should make anyone question purchasing a low-end DSLR with a kit lens that they only use to take pics on full auto.
  - jads 9y ago
    That's not true. Some of the best photos I've seen were not taken with an DSLR. You'll definitely get higher quality photos, but that doesn't mean they're more interesting. But I do agree that buying an entry DSLR with kit lens isn't as tempting to some when smartphones are as good as they are today.
    - ghaff 9y ago
      Interesting was probably the wrong word. Put cameras in the hands of 1 billion+ people who carry them 90% of the time and you'll get many images that photojournalists just wouldn't historically have been there to capture. [ADDED: And some of those will be inherently interesting.] But to me, quality/composition/control help lead to [most of] the most memorable photos, especially those that aren't just capturing an inherently interesting moment, but mileage on that may differ.
- thefalcon 9y ago
  I so wish Apple would make a full sized camera. Include the A11 and a touch screen and even cellular if you want, I don't care how much it costs. Imagine all this hardware and software applied to a real image sensor.
  - sho 9y ago
    It's been a secret little dream of mine for quite some time that Apple would just buy Sony. Sony's imaging hardware is the best, full stop. Their software sucks, full stop. I wish Apple would just buy them and fix that and my god, the things that could be done. An Apple/Sony a7Riii.. what was the phrase? > I don't care how much it costs
  - snuxoll 9y ago
    I think we may start seeing Apple partner with more camera brands rather than buy them outright - see the current RED partnership they have for entry-level “cinema” cameras. It’s be nice if they did joint R&D instead of marketing/sales, though.
- spike021 9y ago
  There's absolutely nothing wrong with skipping the current year's iPhone. I don't know why people have this mentality. For any brand, really. Most new phones nowadays are incremental upgrades, not "evolutions" so to speak. I'm on my iPhone 6 (not even the 6s) right now and I'll be upgrading after three years of having it, but only because the screen is shattered, battery life is bad, and sometimes it's a bit slow.
hsitz 9y ago
I think your post actually proves the point of the person you were disagreeing with. If you, someone experienced with "real" camera gear, were "astonished" by the iphone 7+ pictures and thought they were taken by "five grand worth of gear", then for the average person further gains are going to be unremarkable. Yes, I understand that a camera gearhead finds everything new and each small improvement incredibly exciting. But for the average picture taker none of it is a big deal; what they have is already quite good, certainly good enough. Of course, it won't be hard for marketing to convince people that they should go out and once again fork over more of their hard earned money for "the best", even if it's in reality a minor improvement. Also, for the real photographers the equipment is secondary. Better gear helps very little with creating better pictures. I assure you, people were making awesome pictures with digital cameras ten and twenty years ago, with specs that anybody would laugh at now. Good photographers can produce good pictures no matter what camera they take them with. (And, conversely, bad photographers produce crap no matter how good their cameras.)
- JumpCrisscross 9y ago
  > for the average picture taker none of it is a big deal; what they have is already quite good, certainly good enough So many photos are all about edge cases. If one phone’s sunset or lightning or eclipse photos are more beautiful, people will notice—virally. We’re not at the marketable limit of miniature camera technology. Even if we hit perfect reality —> digital image compression, a smaller camera module, in line with the chassis, would still have a marketable advantage. We’re far from peak camera; gains shouldn’t be dismissed.
- sho 9y ago
  > for the average picture taker none of it is a big deal I think this is a pretty cynical view. OK, maybe the majority don't give a damn, but quite a few people obviously do. Someone's buying iPhones, and S8s, etc. It's pretty dark to assume that all of them are just brainwashed by marketing. Certainly I would say 50%+ of the smartphone owners I personally know were at least influenced by the camera quality. > what they have is already quite good, certainly good enough Well, the reason what they have might be "good enough" is because of this relentless "drag to quality" that Apple et al are orchestrating. > for the real photographers the equipment is secondary And yet all the "real photographers" have tens of thousands of dollars worth of gear. Funny, that. Look, there's a truth to it - no gear on earth will help you if you don't have an eye for framing, light, etc. But gear does matter and it's ridiculous to pretend otherwise. Direct me to your nearest pro/awarded/exhibited tog who wields a $100 point and shoot and I'll eat my words.
agumonkey 9y ago
note: I'm not at all criticizing your comment, just adding one anecdote: I tried an iPhone 7+ one for like 3 minutes, at 10pm in a low light bowling club surrounding. I wanted to taste the camera magic and left totally disappointed both by software and sensor. I don't know how I managed that but I succeeded into making a set of crappy shots. I tried fiddling with the focus and luminosity gizmo in vain. I have a moto g3, pictures are just adequate (I don't pursue ultimate quality like I used to), but I'd still be curious to see some photo magic out of an iPhone.
mistermann 9y ago
> High quality and highly capable cameras - and video cameras - in the hands of the masses? Bring it on I say! How many thousands, if not millions, of incredible, moving, moment-defining images will be captured now we don't need a pro photographer on hand to do justice to a scene? I watch a fair amount of youtube, discoverability of "good" youtube content is very low in my experience, but if you're lucky you do stumble across some absolutely fantastic content that is completely on par with traditional, professionally staffed network television news or documentary shows, except produced by what is typically just a motivated consumer who's put in the work to learn the tools of the trade (and I expect that is probably quite a lot easier nowadays as well, as I imagine there are youtube channels that show you how do learn most all of the skills required to produce a solid youtube channel). Truly a unique and exciting time in history!
rconti 9y ago
I kind of agree with both points. When I take pictures out around town with my 7+ and my Sony RX100mk3, I'm amazed at how much better the iPhone pictures look-- at least on the iPhone screen, compared with the janky beat-up sony screen. ... then i get them into lightroom on a 5k display and I can immediately tell from the watercolor effect which photos were taken on the iphone -- often without zooming in at all. Though the dynamic range looks better from the iPhone, likely only because it outputs jpegs and I'm using RAW on the Sony. Sometimes I use the iPhone shot as the reference for how to tweak+process the Sony pictures, which look better after said processing.

by sho 9y ago

jcmoscon 9y ago

I agree. The 7 plus camera is amazing!

snuxoll 9y ago

The camera upgrade is really the one thing that has be one the edge of upgrading my 7+ to an 8+, I'll still probably wait until next year's model. I'm still considering getting a full-format mirrorless system someday, because even with as great as smartphone cameras are getting there's only so much you can do with an image sensor the size of a pea - but damned if they don't take good looking pictures regardless.

ghaff 9y ago
DSLRs plus skill plus lenses plus effort still produce the more interesting photos under the broadest range of circumstances. But smartphone cameras definitely should make anyone question purchasing a low-end DSLR with a kit lens that they only use to take pics on full auto.
- jads 9y ago
  That's not true. Some of the best photos I've seen were not taken with an DSLR. You'll definitely get higher quality photos, but that doesn't mean they're more interesting. But I do agree that buying an entry DSLR with kit lens isn't as tempting to some when smartphones are as good as they are today.
  - ghaff 9y ago
    Interesting was probably the wrong word. Put cameras in the hands of 1 billion+ people who carry them 90% of the time and you'll get many images that photojournalists just wouldn't historically have been there to capture. [ADDED: And some of those will be inherently interesting.] But to me, quality/composition/control help lead to [most of] the most memorable photos, especially those that aren't just capturing an inherently interesting moment, but mileage on that may differ.
thefalcon 9y ago
I so wish Apple would make a full sized camera. Include the A11 and a touch screen and even cellular if you want, I don't care how much it costs. Imagine all this hardware and software applied to a real image sensor.
- sho 9y ago
  It's been a secret little dream of mine for quite some time that Apple would just buy Sony. Sony's imaging hardware is the best, full stop. Their software sucks, full stop. I wish Apple would just buy them and fix that and my god, the things that could be done. An Apple/Sony a7Riii.. what was the phrase? > I don't care how much it costs
- snuxoll 9y ago
  I think we may start seeing Apple partner with more camera brands rather than buy them outright - see the current RED partnership they have for entry-level “cinema” cameras. It’s be nice if they did joint R&D instead of marketing/sales, though.
spike021 9y ago
There's absolutely nothing wrong with skipping the current year's iPhone. I don't know why people have this mentality. For any brand, really. Most new phones nowadays are incremental upgrades, not "evolutions" so to speak. I'm on my iPhone 6 (not even the 6s) right now and I'll be upgrading after three years of having it, but only because the screen is shattered, battery life is bad, and sometimes it's a bit slow.

hsitz 9y ago

I think your post actually proves the point of the person you were disagreeing with. If you, someone experienced with "real" camera gear, were "astonished" by the iphone 7+ pictures and thought they were taken by "five grand worth of gear", then for the average person further gains are going to be unremarkable. Yes, I understand that a camera gearhead finds everything new and each small improvement incredibly exciting. But for the average picture taker none of it is a big deal; what they have is already quite good, certainly good enough. Of course, it won't be hard for marketing to convince people that they should go out and once again fork over more of their hard earned money for "the best", even if it's in reality a minor improvement. Also, for the real photographers the equipment is secondary. Better gear helps very little with creating better pictures. I assure you, people were making awesome pictures with digital cameras ten and twenty years ago, with specs that anybody would laugh at now. Good photographers can produce good pictures no matter what camera they take them with. (And, conversely, bad photographers produce crap no matter how good their cameras.)

JumpCrisscross 9y ago
> for the average picture taker none of it is a big deal; what they have is already quite good, certainly good enough So many photos are all about edge cases. If one phone’s sunset or lightning or eclipse photos are more beautiful, people will notice—virally. We’re not at the marketable limit of miniature camera technology. Even if we hit perfect reality —> digital image compression, a smaller camera module, in line with the chassis, would still have a marketable advantage. We’re far from peak camera; gains shouldn’t be dismissed.
sho 9y ago
> for the average picture taker none of it is a big deal I think this is a pretty cynical view. OK, maybe the majority don't give a damn, but quite a few people obviously do. Someone's buying iPhones, and S8s, etc. It's pretty dark to assume that all of them are just brainwashed by marketing. Certainly I would say 50%+ of the smartphone owners I personally know were at least influenced by the camera quality. > what they have is already quite good, certainly good enough Well, the reason what they have might be "good enough" is because of this relentless "drag to quality" that Apple et al are orchestrating. > for the real photographers the equipment is secondary And yet all the "real photographers" have tens of thousands of dollars worth of gear. Funny, that. Look, there's a truth to it - no gear on earth will help you if you don't have an eye for framing, light, etc. But gear does matter and it's ridiculous to pretend otherwise. Direct me to your nearest pro/awarded/exhibited tog who wields a $100 point and shoot and I'll eat my words.

agumonkey 9y ago

note: I'm not at all criticizing your comment, just adding one anecdote: I tried an iPhone 7+ one for like 3 minutes, at 10pm in a low light bowling club surrounding. I wanted to taste the camera magic and left totally disappointed both by software and sensor. I don't know how I managed that but I succeeded into making a set of crappy shots. I tried fiddling with the focus and luminosity gizmo in vain. I have a moto g3, pictures are just adequate (I don't pursue ultimate quality like I used to), but I'd still be curious to see some photo magic out of an iPhone.

mistermann 9y ago

> High quality and highly capable cameras - and video cameras - in the hands of the masses? Bring it on I say! How many thousands, if not millions, of incredible, moving, moment-defining images will be captured now we don't need a pro photographer on hand to do justice to a scene? I watch a fair amount of youtube, discoverability of "good" youtube content is very low in my experience, but if you're lucky you do stumble across some absolutely fantastic content that is completely on par with traditional, professionally staffed network television news or documentary shows, except produced by what is typically just a motivated consumer who's put in the work to learn the tools of the trade (and I expect that is probably quite a lot easier nowadays as well, as I imagine there are youtube channels that show you how do learn most all of the skills required to produce a solid youtube channel). Truly a unique and exciting time in history!

rconti 9y ago

I kind of agree with both points. When I take pictures out around town with my 7+ and my Sony RX100mk3, I'm amazed at how much better the iPhone pictures look-- at least on the iPhone screen, compared with the janky beat-up sony screen. ... then i get them into lightroom on a 5k display and I can immediately tell from the watercolor effect which photos were taken on the iphone -- often without zooming in at all. Though the dynamic range looks better from the iPhone, likely only because it outputs jpegs and I'm using RAW on the Sony. Sometimes I use the iPhone shot as the reference for how to tweak+process the Sony pictures, which look better after said processing.