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(at best they were all "just doing their jobs", just like concentration camp guards) Quoted for truth. This is not an invocation of Godwin's law, but the clo

(at best they were all "just doing their jobs", just like concentration camp guards) Quoted for truth. This is not an invocation of Godwin's law, but the closest possible analogy, as these bureaucrats make the exact same repugnant decisions someone like Eichmann made. They fully well know they ruin the lives of many innocent folks; at least half the cases turn out to have been nothing. The problem is not 'the government' or 'society'. The problem is our neighbors: citizens like you and me, not realizing they have to question what they do in the light of each individual situation, not thinking for themselves or not having the moral fiber to act according to those thoughts. These horror stories are not solely an American problem: there are plenty of similar European stories. However, the American stories are by far more extreme, as both the punishment and the immediate social consequences are worse. Not only the bureaucrats are like concentration camp guards: the teachers that immediately distrust you and the neighbors that won't let their kid play with yours anymore are equally guilty of 'guilty until proven innocent'.

motters 16y ago
Yes the hysteria in Europe is quite similar. I think that part of this has to do with the fact that whenever a case of child abuse arises, and it's shown that the social services did not do enough to protect the child from harm, there's a huge media circus, legal cases brought against the council, heads of department sacked and so on. So from the social services point of view false negatives can be prohibitively costly, whereas false positives rarely if ever make the headlines.
- jacquesm 16y ago
  Recently a dutch study indicated that the false positives are actually by far the majority of the cases and on top of that plenty of child abuse goes unnoticed. False reports out of revenge (for instance, between divorcees, jealous neighbours or oither idiots) are also very common, and the damage done to families because of that is significant. The cure seems to be much worse than the disease here. Friends of ours had a 'visit' of the dutch equivalent of the 'service' (I use the term lightly) who kept on suggesting that there must be something wrong. When the guy got up to make coffee the woman said 'you can tell me now', as though she was a victim too. Unbelievable, the way these people push their way in to peoples lives, guilty by default and if you are very very lucky you might get to keep your kids at their say-so.
cagey 16y ago
The problem is not 'the government' or 'society'. The problem is our neighbors: citizens like you and me... I fail to see how my neighbors caused this problem (aside from demonstrating a tendency to vote for legislators who themselves had a latent tendency to write the laws creating the bureaucracy which assailed us). The problem is in fact those legislators (and a system that offers minimal checks on the legislation they pass into law), and an apparent collective swoon they fall into, where they think that every "issue de jour" needs a new law in response, and every law is a good law (and more laws, new laws, are better than no new laws) so they spend all their time writing and passing laws, thousands upon thousands of pages of new laws (and often vote to pass same w/o having read the laws being voted upon), many of which require new bureaucracies to enforce. Basically they are busy with their long term project (driven to some degree by the constant cajoling of "advocates" of all stripes who wish to inflict, by rule of law, their point of view on everyone) of legislating a straitjacket for each citizen. Do you like yours? the teachers that immediately distrust you Even aside from our CPS experience, this is true: the classroom is their kingdom, and any parent who dares to question a teacher, or come across with an attitude other than "we worship the ground you walk on" (with smiley faces all around), is going to have trouble. NB: we were (parents) "in the special ed system" (another fine bureaucracy ... not!) so got to "get up close and personal" in ways most parents do not. Our ultimate solution? Home Schooling. I had assumed that switching to this schooling mode would, if not simply impossible, at least be a bureaucratic nightmare, but to my complete surprise, here in CA it is so easy to switch to Home Schooling (this improbable result is thanks entirely to HS groups fighting and winning a number of court cases), and you are (can be if you choose) completely cut loose from the government education bureaucracy. You're probably thinking "aha! He's Home Schooling, therefore he's a Fundamentalist Christian therefore he's a loony tune, and I can scoff at him"; wrong; I am areligious. My bible, if any: http://www.amazon.com/How-Found-Freedom-Unfree-World/dp/0380004232/ http://www.amazon.com/How-Found-Freedom-Unfree-World/dp/0380... EDIT: formatting
- dedward 16y ago
  As a colleague who lived through conflict in Serbia once told me of a conversation he had with an opposition soldier with a gun.... long story short - the soldier said "I have no choice, I'm just following orders"... and my friend said "YOU are the only person in this situation who DOES have a choice - YOU are the one holding the gun." IT's all too easy for people to forget they are individuals and capable of individual choices (which yes, have consequences.)
nprincigalli 16y ago
It surprises me that when it comes to bureaucrats causing harm while "just doing their jobs" no one has mentioned the Milgram experiment yet ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment ).

motters 16y ago

Yes the hysteria in Europe is quite similar. I think that part of this has to do with the fact that whenever a case of child abuse arises, and it's shown that the social services did not do enough to protect the child from harm, there's a huge media circus, legal cases brought against the council, heads of department sacked and so on. So from the social services point of view false negatives can be prohibitively costly, whereas false positives rarely if ever make the headlines.

jacquesm 16y ago
Recently a dutch study indicated that the false positives are actually by far the majority of the cases and on top of that plenty of child abuse goes unnoticed. False reports out of revenge (for instance, between divorcees, jealous neighbours or oither idiots) are also very common, and the damage done to families because of that is significant. The cure seems to be much worse than the disease here. Friends of ours had a 'visit' of the dutch equivalent of the 'service' (I use the term lightly) who kept on suggesting that there must be something wrong. When the guy got up to make coffee the woman said 'you can tell me now', as though she was a victim too. Unbelievable, the way these people push their way in to peoples lives, guilty by default and if you are very very lucky you might get to keep your kids at their say-so.

cagey 16y ago

The problem is not 'the government' or 'society'. The problem is our neighbors: citizens like you and me... I fail to see how my neighbors caused this problem (aside from demonstrating a tendency to vote for legislators who themselves had a latent tendency to write the laws creating the bureaucracy which assailed us). The problem is in fact those legislators (and a system that offers minimal checks on the legislation they pass into law), and an apparent collective swoon they fall into, where they think that every "issue de jour" needs a new law in response, and every law is a good law (and more laws, new laws, are better than no new laws) so they spend all their time writing and passing laws, thousands upon thousands of pages of new laws (and often vote to pass same w/o having read the laws being voted upon), many of which require new bureaucracies to enforce. Basically they are busy with their long term project (driven to some degree by the constant cajoling of "advocates" of all stripes who wish to inflict, by rule of law, their point of view on everyone) of legislating a straitjacket for each citizen. Do you like yours? the teachers that immediately distrust you Even aside from our CPS experience, this is true: the classroom is their kingdom, and any parent who dares to question a teacher, or come across with an attitude other than "we worship the ground you walk on" (with smiley faces all around), is going to have trouble. NB: we were (parents) "in the special ed system" (another fine bureaucracy ... not!) so got to "get up close and personal" in ways most parents do not. Our ultimate solution? Home Schooling. I had assumed that switching to this schooling mode would, if not simply impossible, at least be a bureaucratic nightmare, but to my complete surprise, here in CA it is so easy to switch to Home Schooling (this improbable result is thanks entirely to HS groups fighting and winning a number of court cases), and you are (can be if you choose) completely cut loose from the government education bureaucracy. You're probably thinking "aha! He's Home Schooling, therefore he's a Fundamentalist Christian therefore he's a loony tune, and I can scoff at him"; wrong; I am areligious. My bible, if any: http://www.amazon.com/How-Found-Freedom-Unfree-World/dp/0380004232/ http://www.amazon.com/How-Found-Freedom-Unfree-World/dp/0380... EDIT: formatting

dedward 16y ago
As a colleague who lived through conflict in Serbia once told me of a conversation he had with an opposition soldier with a gun.... long story short - the soldier said "I have no choice, I'm just following orders"... and my friend said "YOU are the only person in this situation who DOES have a choice - YOU are the one holding the gun." IT's all too easy for people to forget they are individuals and capable of individual choices (which yes, have consequences.)

nprincigalli 16y ago

It surprises me that when it comes to bureaucrats causing harm while "just doing their jobs" no one has mentioned the Milgram experiment yet ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment ).