6 ms·

Why wouldn't it be legal? Virtually every US state has zero notice requirements -- tell your employee that they are being fired, laid off or otherwise no longer

by dsr_ 9y ago

Why wouldn't it be legal? Virtually every US state has zero notice requirements -- tell your employee that they are being fired, laid off or otherwise no longer going to work here, pay them what you owe them immediately, and you're done. "Two weeks notice" is a social nicety, good for maintaining good relationships and status. If you don't care about those things, you can quit or fire on the spot.

adrianN 9y ago
Wow, here in Germany you need to give 4 weeks notice at the minimum. Two months if the employment lasted for at least five years.
- KekDemaga 9y ago
  What requirements do employees have should they wish to quit?
  - chokma 9y ago
    The time frame is symmetrical - both employers and employees have to give 4 weeks notice (default). In my case, the US parent company decided on 12 weeks, probably to retain the software developers. Note that depending on unions (rare in IT) and mandatory employee representation (Betriebsrat) for big companies, firing people can be harder, especially for long-term employees.
    - KekDemaga 9y ago
      Is the 4 weeks on the employee side a social custom that can be ignored (it is considered rude to do so here but not illegal) or is it actually a law or contractual obligation? Can you quit on the spot if say you feel the work load is unreasonable?
      - user5994461 9y ago
        Can't speak for Germany, but that's usually both a law and contractual obligation on that side of the Atlantic.
      - TulliusCicero 9y ago
        If you want to quit and the firing notice period is also four weeks, what can they threaten you with if you refuse to work overtime?
        KekDemaga 9y ago
        I'm not sure what the legal or contractual penalties are, if they are nothing then you are right and in real terms you can just quit on the spot.
      - chokma 9y ago
        No, it's by law. You have a minimum of 4 weeks notice in Germany (some exceptions apply, for example you are hired for temp work). So you cannot quit on the spot, and your employer cannot fire you on the spot, unless it is for gross reasons on one side which makes it extremely unreasonable to continue employment. Examples of this would be if you're caught stealing or harassing a coworker - or if your employer is breaking the law by repeatedly not paying you on time or endangering your health etc. You cannot be fired for being late once. Your employer has to document that he has told you "Do not be late again, or else" (and you have to sign off on this). Work load may not be unreasonable. Usual work load is 40 hour weeks, and overtime is dependent on contractual definitions. Some people are (by union) not able to work more, others are exempt from overtime restrictions (managers), others will receive money or free time as compensation. You can enter contracts that specify a certain amount of overtime work, but unless they are specific enough, those clauses are void. You cannot get less than 24 days / year of holidays, you must not work on Sunday (unless: emergency or working in an exempt job, like healthcare), and employers risk fines/prison if they deny you those rights. Overtime usually requires an explicit order, and is limited to 48h total work time /week. Anything more (for example: seasonal workers) needs to be compensated with free time in the following 6 months. So an employer can demand a death march for a project, but even that is limited to not more than 10 h/day. That said, while the law may be on your side, people may work more than the contractually defined amount "because it's necessary / they need me there" or other strange reasons. (note: there are exceptions for all rules. When your data center is down for some reason, you are not going to tell your boss "sorry, my 8 hours today are up, find someone else to restart those servers. I'll be back tomorrow.")
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- CoreXtreme 9y ago
  Are Google, Apple or Facebook German companies?
  - adrianN 9y ago
    If they employ people in Germany they have to obey German law.
southphillyman 9y ago
I hate that there is such a double standard with this. Corporation can eliminate my employment at any time with zero notice and suffer minimal reputational impact. If I decide to quit right now and walk out of my office, I have to worry about long lasting reputational issues and "burning bridges". I get why it's like this, corporations have all the leverage, just hate that the dynamic exists.
- planteen 9y ago
  In general, there is some sort of severance that is at least 2 weeks plus some additional days based on years of service.
  - lovich 9y ago
    I don't know if it's different on the east coast but I have never met a single person whose gotten any severance. About the nicest I've seen from companies is them saying "we won't dispute your unemployment claim"
    - planteen 9y ago
      From big companies? Which ones? And my limited understanding of labor law is that Massachusetts has more regulation on this sort of thing than most states. Read https://www.thelayoff.com https://www.thelayoff.com and typically any big companies layoff discussion will mention the severance package being offered. https://www.thelayoff.com/t/Plt3gwU https://www.thelayoff.com/t/Plt3gwU
      - lovich 9y ago
        I never experienced mass layoffs, just a slow removal of employees. Either outright firing, but one at a time, or some aspect of the job was changed abruptly and in a manner that garunteed people would leave. Those positions then wouldn't be backfilled. It's not doable on a scale of 1000s but it was doable on a scale of 30-40
- nonamechicken 9y ago
logfromblammo 9y ago
It is possible that the employer pays for some number of weeks, but does not require (or allow) the employee to do any work during that period. But in 2017, I doubt it. If it's a big company in an at-will state, they just show you the door and say, "Bye. Good luck out there!"

by dsr_ 9y ago

adrianN 9y ago

Wow, here in Germany you need to give 4 weeks notice at the minimum. Two months if the employment lasted for at least five years.

KekDemaga 9y ago
What requirements do employees have should they wish to quit?
- chokma 9y ago
  The time frame is symmetrical - both employers and employees have to give 4 weeks notice (default). In my case, the US parent company decided on 12 weeks, probably to retain the software developers. Note that depending on unions (rare in IT) and mandatory employee representation (Betriebsrat) for big companies, firing people can be harder, especially for long-term employees.
  - KekDemaga 9y ago
    Is the 4 weeks on the employee side a social custom that can be ignored (it is considered rude to do so here but not illegal) or is it actually a law or contractual obligation? Can you quit on the spot if say you feel the work load is unreasonable?
    - user5994461 9y ago
      Can't speak for Germany, but that's usually both a law and contractual obligation on that side of the Atlantic.
    - TulliusCicero 9y ago
      If you want to quit and the firing notice period is also four weeks, what can they threaten you with if you refuse to work overtime?
      - KekDemaga 9y ago
        I'm not sure what the legal or contractual penalties are, if they are nothing then you are right and in real terms you can just quit on the spot.
    - chokma 9y ago
      No, it's by law. You have a minimum of 4 weeks notice in Germany (some exceptions apply, for example you are hired for temp work). So you cannot quit on the spot, and your employer cannot fire you on the spot, unless it is for gross reasons on one side which makes it extremely unreasonable to continue employment. Examples of this would be if you're caught stealing or harassing a coworker - or if your employer is breaking the law by repeatedly not paying you on time or endangering your health etc. You cannot be fired for being late once. Your employer has to document that he has told you "Do not be late again, or else" (and you have to sign off on this). Work load may not be unreasonable. Usual work load is 40 hour weeks, and overtime is dependent on contractual definitions. Some people are (by union) not able to work more, others are exempt from overtime restrictions (managers), others will receive money or free time as compensation. You can enter contracts that specify a certain amount of overtime work, but unless they are specific enough, those clauses are void. You cannot get less than 24 days / year of holidays, you must not work on Sunday (unless: emergency or working in an exempt job, like healthcare), and employers risk fines/prison if they deny you those rights. Overtime usually requires an explicit order, and is limited to 48h total work time /week. Anything more (for example: seasonal workers) needs to be compensated with free time in the following 6 months. So an employer can demand a death march for a project, but even that is limited to not more than 10 h/day. That said, while the law may be on your side, people may work more than the contractually defined amount "because it's necessary / they need me there" or other strange reasons. (note: there are exceptions for all rules. When your data center is down for some reason, you are not going to tell your boss "sorry, my 8 hours today are up, find someone else to restart those servers. I'll be back tomorrow.")
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
CoreXtreme 9y ago
Are Google, Apple or Facebook German companies?
- adrianN 9y ago
  If they employ people in Germany they have to obey German law.

southphillyman 9y ago

I hate that there is such a double standard with this. Corporation can eliminate my employment at any time with zero notice and suffer minimal reputational impact. If I decide to quit right now and walk out of my office, I have to worry about long lasting reputational issues and "burning bridges". I get why it's like this, corporations have all the leverage, just hate that the dynamic exists.

planteen 9y ago
In general, there is some sort of severance that is at least 2 weeks plus some additional days based on years of service.
- lovich 9y ago
  I don't know if it's different on the east coast but I have never met a single person whose gotten any severance. About the nicest I've seen from companies is them saying "we won't dispute your unemployment claim"
  - planteen 9y ago
    From big companies? Which ones? And my limited understanding of labor law is that Massachusetts has more regulation on this sort of thing than most states. Read https://www.thelayoff.com https://www.thelayoff.com and typically any big companies layoff discussion will mention the severance package being offered. https://www.thelayoff.com/t/Plt3gwU https://www.thelayoff.com/t/Plt3gwU
    - lovich 9y ago
      I never experienced mass layoffs, just a slow removal of employees. Either outright firing, but one at a time, or some aspect of the job was changed abruptly and in a manner that garunteed people would leave. Those positions then wouldn't be backfilled. It's not doable on a scale of 1000s but it was doable on a scale of 30-40
nonamechicken 9y ago

logfromblammo 9y ago

It is possible that the employer pays for some number of weeks, but does not require (or allow) the employee to do any work during that period. But in 2017, I doubt it. If it's a big company in an at-will state, they just show you the door and say, "Bye. Good luck out there!"