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These countries will just block Medium, Snap, etc, if they don't comply. I don't see how fighting them on this is actually any better except that you get to pat

These countries will just block Medium, Snap, etc, if they don't comply. I don't see how fighting them on this is actually any better except that you get to pat yourself on the back. To me, the more worrying cases are when governments demand removal of content worldwide, and that's being done by Western governments in the EU and Canada. Why is the EFF not demanding companies pull out of those countries?

loceng 9y ago
Is withholding the best technology - that otherwise presumably would increase the quality of life of a nation's citizens if they had access to it - a good method of protest, or will it simply lead to other actors who are okay to support censorship and such to fill the gaps? I'm not sure of the answer.
- alexro 9y ago
  == quality of life == by who's standards?
  - vixen99 9y ago
    whose
- Eridrus 9y ago
  In undemocratic countries, I think the answer is no, since the elites do not really need to accede to citizen's demands. In democratic nations, I think it depends. I think the company's complaints have to seem reasonable to the populace and for there to be no credible alternative. Uber and Lyft pulled out of Austin for a year in the hope that would put pressure in lawmakers to change the rules, but instead local competitors who were willing to deal with the new regulations setup shop and Uber and Lyft both returned. I don't think Medium or Snap are important enough to have any leverage anywhere.
- SomeStupidPoint 9y ago
  I try to take a lesson from supermarkets: what blew the mind of many Russians during the Cold War was the existence of supermarkets. Many assumed they were either propaganda or only available to wealthy Westerners, and it had an extremely corrosive effect on the beliefs of Russians who understood how generally available such stores were in the US. The existence of supermarkets turned out to be one of our most powerful propaganda tools! At a practical level, one of the most important things we can do if we really believe in Western society is simply live it and let other people be exposed to it. Time and time again, simply living well is infectious and does more to undermine totalitarian regimes than pretty much anything else. Most people (on any side of an issue) really want the same thing -- to live a nice life. Fighting stems from different visions of how to do that (or an inability to do that because of poverty, oppression, etc), but in a competition between ideals, the winner is generally the one that lets people live "better". So as a method of protest, I'd argue it's a complete failure: it removes our most powerful tools, which are primarily exposure based, while leaving a power vacuum behind and getting virtually nothing in return. The flow of culture from sharing messaging platforms is simply too powerful a tool to abandon as mere "protest".
  - dredmorbius 9y ago
    Supermarkets weren't 1) being made directly available within the Soviet Bloc and 2) weren't being utilised for propaganda or censorship against Soviet and Communist dissidents. The existence of the WWW is known. The existence of sites such as Medium or Snap are known. If those exist, but are blocked either by the Saudi regime, or with very clear "this content has been censored at the request of your government" then the abject political control is revealed. Power often is most effective where it can act covertly. Forcing the hand, or even showing it, can weaken it.
    - SomeStupidPoint 9y ago
      My point wasn't that Snap (et al) were supermarkets; my point was that the US and Saudi Arabia sharing Snap allowed the Saudi Arabians to see metaphorical supermarkets inside of the US by easing communication. I believe that this is significantly more powerful than the other thing, precisely because revealing a failure of providing a standard of living is more motivational than revealing the use of power in a regime like Saudi Arabia. "Everyone knows the government filters X, but who cares, we can just use Y!" vs "Why do Americans all seem to have Z, but we don't?"
wavefunction 9y ago
There's a lot to be said for being able to pat yourself on the back for doing the ethical thing. Sad this is dismissed so easily today.
- SomeStupidPoint 9y ago
  I feel we have the opposite problem: Too many people are happy to pat themselves on the back for shallow, extremist "ethics" because it's simple to execute and emotionally rewarding, while there's a dearth of engaging with messiness that's life.
panarky 9y ago
It's very visible to the population when a regime blocks a popular site or app. That shines a bright light on the regime's censorship. It also puts pressure on the regime to relax their iron grip, since it makes them look bad to their own citizens and to the rest of the world. But implementing the regime's censorship inside your app or site hides the censorship. It reduces the pressure from citizens and the international community. You're now collaborating with the regime against your customers. Doing the right thing is almost always better than collaboration. I will not use my engineering time and talent as a tool of your repression, and if you block me, your citizens and the whole world can see it. (By the way, the EFF is doing amazing work with advocacy, legal affairs, certbot, etc. This Saudi article reminded me to give again: https://supporters.eff.org/donate https://supporters.eff.org/donate )
- Eridrus 9y ago
  > It's very visible to the population when a regime blocks a popular site or app. I don't think people living in these countries are unaware of the situation.
  - dredmorbius 9y ago
    Greater direct visibility or cognisibility always helps make a point. It's the difference between "I think ..." and "here is the evidence".
- Ajedi32 9y ago
  Couldn't you achieve the same goal by exposing censorship inside your app through the UI? For example, rather than hide the content entirely, replace it with a notice that "This content has been blocked in your country to comply with laws by your government." Sorta like what Google does for DMCA takedowns: https://cdn.ghacks.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/dmca-complaint.jpg https://cdn.ghacks.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/dmca-compl...
  - sp332 9y ago
    Twitter does this too. https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/3kz57j/this-is-how-twitter-blocks-far-right-tweets-in-germany https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/3kz57j/this-is-ho...

loceng 9y ago

Is withholding the best technology - that otherwise presumably would increase the quality of life of a nation's citizens if they had access to it - a good method of protest, or will it simply lead to other actors who are okay to support censorship and such to fill the gaps? I'm not sure of the answer.

alexro 9y ago
== quality of life == by who's standards?
- vixen99 9y ago
  whose
Eridrus 9y ago
In undemocratic countries, I think the answer is no, since the elites do not really need to accede to citizen's demands. In democratic nations, I think it depends. I think the company's complaints have to seem reasonable to the populace and for there to be no credible alternative. Uber and Lyft pulled out of Austin for a year in the hope that would put pressure in lawmakers to change the rules, but instead local competitors who were willing to deal with the new regulations setup shop and Uber and Lyft both returned. I don't think Medium or Snap are important enough to have any leverage anywhere.
SomeStupidPoint 9y ago
I try to take a lesson from supermarkets: what blew the mind of many Russians during the Cold War was the existence of supermarkets. Many assumed they were either propaganda or only available to wealthy Westerners, and it had an extremely corrosive effect on the beliefs of Russians who understood how generally available such stores were in the US. The existence of supermarkets turned out to be one of our most powerful propaganda tools! At a practical level, one of the most important things we can do if we really believe in Western society is simply live it and let other people be exposed to it. Time and time again, simply living well is infectious and does more to undermine totalitarian regimes than pretty much anything else. Most people (on any side of an issue) really want the same thing -- to live a nice life. Fighting stems from different visions of how to do that (or an inability to do that because of poverty, oppression, etc), but in a competition between ideals, the winner is generally the one that lets people live "better". So as a method of protest, I'd argue it's a complete failure: it removes our most powerful tools, which are primarily exposure based, while leaving a power vacuum behind and getting virtually nothing in return. The flow of culture from sharing messaging platforms is simply too powerful a tool to abandon as mere "protest".
- dredmorbius 9y ago
  Supermarkets weren't 1) being made directly available within the Soviet Bloc and 2) weren't being utilised for propaganda or censorship against Soviet and Communist dissidents. The existence of the WWW is known. The existence of sites such as Medium or Snap are known. If those exist, but are blocked either by the Saudi regime, or with very clear "this content has been censored at the request of your government" then the abject political control is revealed. Power often is most effective where it can act covertly. Forcing the hand, or even showing it, can weaken it.
  - SomeStupidPoint 9y ago
    My point wasn't that Snap (et al) were supermarkets; my point was that the US and Saudi Arabia sharing Snap allowed the Saudi Arabians to see metaphorical supermarkets inside of the US by easing communication. I believe that this is significantly more powerful than the other thing, precisely because revealing a failure of providing a standard of living is more motivational than revealing the use of power in a regime like Saudi Arabia. "Everyone knows the government filters X, but who cares, we can just use Y!" vs "Why do Americans all seem to have Z, but we don't?"

wavefunction 9y ago

There's a lot to be said for being able to pat yourself on the back for doing the ethical thing. Sad this is dismissed so easily today.

SomeStupidPoint 9y ago
I feel we have the opposite problem: Too many people are happy to pat themselves on the back for shallow, extremist "ethics" because it's simple to execute and emotionally rewarding, while there's a dearth of engaging with messiness that's life.

panarky 9y ago

It's very visible to the population when a regime blocks a popular site or app. That shines a bright light on the regime's censorship. It also puts pressure on the regime to relax their iron grip, since it makes them look bad to their own citizens and to the rest of the world. But implementing the regime's censorship inside your app or site hides the censorship. It reduces the pressure from citizens and the international community. You're now collaborating with the regime against your customers. Doing the right thing is almost always better than collaboration. I will not use my engineering time and talent as a tool of your repression, and if you block me, your citizens and the whole world can see it. (By the way, the EFF is doing amazing work with advocacy, legal affairs, certbot, etc. This Saudi article reminded me to give again: https://supporters.eff.org/donate https://supporters.eff.org/donate )

Eridrus 9y ago
> It's very visible to the population when a regime blocks a popular site or app. I don't think people living in these countries are unaware of the situation.
- dredmorbius 9y ago
  Greater direct visibility or cognisibility always helps make a point. It's the difference between "I think ..." and "here is the evidence".
Ajedi32 9y ago
Couldn't you achieve the same goal by exposing censorship inside your app through the UI? For example, rather than hide the content entirely, replace it with a notice that "This content has been blocked in your country to comply with laws by your government." Sorta like what Google does for DMCA takedowns: https://cdn.ghacks.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/dmca-complaint.jpg https://cdn.ghacks.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/dmca-compl...
- sp332 9y ago
  Twitter does this too. https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/3kz57j/this-is-how-twitter-blocks-far-right-tweets-in-germany https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/3kz57j/this-is-ho...