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This decision has officially nothing to do with tax evasion/optimization. It is on grounds of consumer protection that Uber's licence is not being renewed. Any

by erwan 9y ago

This decision has officially nothing to do with tax evasion/optimization. It is on grounds of consumer protection that Uber's licence is not being renewed. Anyone who has taken a black cab should immediately understand the hypocrisy motivating this decision. The user experience is absolutely horrendous and there's no good tracking system to make black cab drivers accountable. In short, as everyone knows, it is just another artificial monopoly enshrined into law by regulators. A good thing is that same regulators are losing lots of credibility. For decades they could pretend they were acting on basis of consumer protection. Now it is clear they aren't. People love Uber (not necessarily applies in the US anymore) because the experience is amazing at decent prices. Even in a city with a high density public transportation system like Paris, you are always happy to have that option in case it is past 1:00am or you're in a hurry.

Nursie 9y ago
I didn't mention taxes, but it seems to be explicitly about non-cooperation in criminal matters, workers rights and all sorts of other areas. Black cabs are far from a monopoly, and Uber are far from the only alternative.
- kodablah 9y ago
  > ...it seems to be explicitly about... The BBC article is a bit light on details. Do you have a link where I can read the detailed license revocation reasons so I can make my own judgement?
  - Nursie 9y ago
    Check out the rest of the thread, onion2k gave a few
    - kodablah 9y ago
      I saw those links, and can Google others as well when searching for Uber wrongdoing. I want their details, not a commenters. I saw the Tfl's statement which only had four abstract bullet points. What did they ask about Greyball and what was answered? Which unreported crimes and were there cover-up attempts by the company? In general, one might expect a level of detailed transparency in these rulings lest it's seen as a foregone conclusion retroactively finding reasons. Is there a commission report I can read or a committee hearing I can watch?
      - Nursie 9y ago
        I presume it's available somewhere, if one looks hard enough. london.gov.uk has a lot of detailed info, including minutes of transport committee meetings, various FOI requests (including an Uber one from earlier in the year - https://www.london.gov.uk/foi-disclosure-log/foi-uber-meetings-and-correspondence https://www.london.gov.uk/foi-disclosure-log/foi-uber-meetin... ) If there isn't enough already published then you could consider submitting an FOI yourself. --edit-- This may be interesting and has various links to rulings by the London Assembly, and other bits and pieces: https://www.london.gov.uk/press-releases/assembly/chair-of-the-london-assembly-on-uber-0 https://www.london.gov.uk/press-releases/assembly/chair-of-t...
        kodablah 9y ago
        Thanks! Digging now, but only finding a couple-statement motion and some congestion info by uber and separately by inrix. If anyone has a link to the actual investigation/details, I'd appreciate it. Otherwise, I'll keep digging and if I find it I'll post it.
        Nursie 9y ago
        Please do, I would be interested to have a look too!
squigg 9y ago
I'm sorry but you will have to do more to explain your point on black cab user experience being horrendous. Whilst it can be hard to get a hold of one at times, in my experience of 20 years of using them, the user experience is great - the drivers are typically friendly and get you there as quickly as they can. I have used Uber many times in London and abandoned it months ago, as the drivers don't have the local knowledge required to quickly move across what is a very busy city. SatNav isn't everything - give me driver experience every single time.
- princeb 9y ago
  uber is pretty much useless in zone 1 since the roads are too narrow and the traffic too extreme. you could literally take a leisurely walk from the british museum down to leicester square garden faster than a minicab. black cabs have the benefit of being allowed to travel on bus lanes and that makes all the difference in central London. that said, black cabs get more and more unreliable the further away from central London you are.
  - darrenf 9y ago
    As someone who grew up in zone 4 and has lived for 18 years in zone 6, I don't recognise the last point here at all.
- djsumdog 9y ago
  I've only taken a London cab a handful of times, but I never had a bad experience. I don't think I've had a bad experience with Uber drivers either...maybe one or two weird conversations .. same with Lyft drivers. I just want to know if Uber drivers can average the same income as cabbies working the same hours. In New Zealand, several Uber drivers use to be cabbies and switched from Wellington Combined because they earned more money with Uber. That was years ago and I'm curious if that's still the case or if those drivers have switched back. In Berlin, the Uber app hails a regular taxi driver that's under standard taxi regulations from the city, so there it's more just a billing system. Everywhere else I've taken Lyft/Uber, the drivers never started out in taxis. It's turning the taxi industry into a "gig economy" I realize a lot of people got their start in new cities as taxi drivers; immigrants from generations back. Things are changing. It's not good or bad, just different. The biggest concern is Uber as a company. Most of the rides I've mentioned I've taken with others. I prefer public transport when possible, Lyft when I have to. For a while on HN, ever week was another post: Greyball, the Hell map, the two harassment blog posts, anti-union efforts against drivers, hiring Eric Holder for damage control, the continuing Google/Waymo self driving tech court case, etc. Are there any recent posts on how much drivers earn? I've heard it's going down each year. Is it worth it to lose an entire career path for some people for cheaper rides?

by erwan 9y ago

Nursie 9y ago

I didn't mention taxes, but it seems to be explicitly about non-cooperation in criminal matters, workers rights and all sorts of other areas. Black cabs are far from a monopoly, and Uber are far from the only alternative.

kodablah 9y ago
> ...it seems to be explicitly about... The BBC article is a bit light on details. Do you have a link where I can read the detailed license revocation reasons so I can make my own judgement?
- Nursie 9y ago
  Check out the rest of the thread, onion2k gave a few
  - kodablah 9y ago
    I saw those links, and can Google others as well when searching for Uber wrongdoing. I want their details, not a commenters. I saw the Tfl's statement which only had four abstract bullet points. What did they ask about Greyball and what was answered? Which unreported crimes and were there cover-up attempts by the company? In general, one might expect a level of detailed transparency in these rulings lest it's seen as a foregone conclusion retroactively finding reasons. Is there a commission report I can read or a committee hearing I can watch?
    - Nursie 9y ago
      I presume it's available somewhere, if one looks hard enough. london.gov.uk has a lot of detailed info, including minutes of transport committee meetings, various FOI requests (including an Uber one from earlier in the year - https://www.london.gov.uk/foi-disclosure-log/foi-uber-meetings-and-correspondence https://www.london.gov.uk/foi-disclosure-log/foi-uber-meetin... ) If there isn't enough already published then you could consider submitting an FOI yourself. --edit-- This may be interesting and has various links to rulings by the London Assembly, and other bits and pieces: https://www.london.gov.uk/press-releases/assembly/chair-of-the-london-assembly-on-uber-0 https://www.london.gov.uk/press-releases/assembly/chair-of-t...
      - kodablah 9y ago
        Thanks! Digging now, but only finding a couple-statement motion and some congestion info by uber and separately by inrix. If anyone has a link to the actual investigation/details, I'd appreciate it. Otherwise, I'll keep digging and if I find it I'll post it.
        Nursie 9y ago
        Please do, I would be interested to have a look too!

squigg 9y ago

I'm sorry but you will have to do more to explain your point on black cab user experience being horrendous. Whilst it can be hard to get a hold of one at times, in my experience of 20 years of using them, the user experience is great - the drivers are typically friendly and get you there as quickly as they can. I have used Uber many times in London and abandoned it months ago, as the drivers don't have the local knowledge required to quickly move across what is a very busy city. SatNav isn't everything - give me driver experience every single time.

princeb 9y ago
uber is pretty much useless in zone 1 since the roads are too narrow and the traffic too extreme. you could literally take a leisurely walk from the british museum down to leicester square garden faster than a minicab. black cabs have the benefit of being allowed to travel on bus lanes and that makes all the difference in central London. that said, black cabs get more and more unreliable the further away from central London you are.
- darrenf 9y ago
  As someone who grew up in zone 4 and has lived for 18 years in zone 6, I don't recognise the last point here at all.
djsumdog 9y ago
I've only taken a London cab a handful of times, but I never had a bad experience. I don't think I've had a bad experience with Uber drivers either...maybe one or two weird conversations .. same with Lyft drivers. I just want to know if Uber drivers can average the same income as cabbies working the same hours. In New Zealand, several Uber drivers use to be cabbies and switched from Wellington Combined because they earned more money with Uber. That was years ago and I'm curious if that's still the case or if those drivers have switched back. In Berlin, the Uber app hails a regular taxi driver that's under standard taxi regulations from the city, so there it's more just a billing system. Everywhere else I've taken Lyft/Uber, the drivers never started out in taxis. It's turning the taxi industry into a "gig economy" I realize a lot of people got their start in new cities as taxi drivers; immigrants from generations back. Things are changing. It's not good or bad, just different. The biggest concern is Uber as a company. Most of the rides I've mentioned I've taken with others. I prefer public transport when possible, Lyft when I have to. For a while on HN, ever week was another post: Greyball, the Hell map, the two harassment blog posts, anti-union efforts against drivers, hiring Eric Holder for damage control, the continuing Google/Waymo self driving tech court case, etc. Are there any recent posts on how much drivers earn? I've heard it's going down each year. Is it worth it to lose an entire career path for some people for cheaper rides?