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> It makes me sad to see the waste created in the environment due to ignorance. It's common practice to use re-usable drinking containers.. and you can do this

by new299 9y ago

> It makes me sad to see the waste created in the environment due to ignorance. It's common practice to use re-usable drinking containers.. and you can do this while traveling as well. It's like bringing your own shopping bag, people didn't used to do this often, but now it's become more of a trend and it's good for the environment. I feel like many environmental actions that governments support are taken because they are easy, not because they have the highest impact. In your example of re-usable shopping bags, most items use more packaging that the bag itself. The environmental impact of mandating bag re-use seems minimal, compared to the packaging used for fruit, meat, vegetables, and all other common commodities. In the case of re-usable water bottles. Yes, they can be useful no doubt. There are situations and people for whom this doesn't work well. For example, a re-usable bottle should be washed with soap once a day [1] and that might not always be possible. So suggesting that all or most users of bottled water are "lazy of apathetic" does not seem justified. [1] http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/wait-youre-supposed-to-wash-your-water-bottle-how-often_us_57a357b2e4b04414d1f3bf3a http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/wait-youre-supposed-to-w...

new299 9y ago
If I'm going to be downvoted... some kind of counterpoint or explanation would help progress the discussion, and avoid my making similar errors in the future.
- nkrisc 9y ago
  I wasn't one who downvoted you but it might be because it sounds as if you're suggesting that there's something wrong with taking an easy and less impactful action when there are more impactful, but much harder actions. One does not preclude the other. Yes, targeting plastic shopping bags is easy, and yes the packaging the items come in is probably worse, but why not take the easy action anyway? What's your point?
  - new299 9y ago
    Ah, if that's the case I guess I didn't make my point clearly. Absolutely, it's fine and I personally feel, a great idea to use reusable bags (and water bottles). The difficulty comes if people apply social pressure and say "why are you still using non-reusable bags that you are lazy and apathetic, and it's a sign of societies mental decline" (those are rephrased statements used elsewhere in this discussion). Because there can be good reasons for using a non-reusable bags (or water bottles) in certain situations, and there are likely value judgments you make that have equal (or greater) environmental impact which have similar utility.
- jstewartmobile 9y ago
  I didn't downvote you. I just thought you were being pedantic. It's not like you need a peer-reviewed study to establish that we're wasting gas and plastic on something people did just fine without a couple generations ago.
  - new299 9y ago
    I'd need a peer reviewed study yes. To understand it in the context of all the other things we waste gas and plastic on. A single plane flight uses more energy than all the bottles of water I'm likely to consume in a lifetime (many times more). So.. it seems odd to me to single out bottled water and say those people are the sign of "mental decline" and "lazy and apathetic" (as other commenters have suggested). And what's surprising is that it feels like people are saying: "those are they bad guys... the guys buying bottled water... buying multiple other items with equal or more packaging on a daily basis and buying smartphones, and PCs, and taking international flights, that's fine that's "justifiable"". In my mind, if bottled water is "lazy and apathetic" and a sign of "mental decline". It's not clear that all those other things aren't too.
    - jstewartmobile 9y ago
      We're really arguing value systems here, so I don't see what a study is going to bring to the table. That, and it's not just a matter of energy. What about the litter? What about BPS/BPA leaching? What about the neglect of public systems because everyone with a little extra cash just says "not my problem" and buys a case of Nestle every week?
      - new299 9y ago
        > We're really arguing value systems here, so I don't see what a study is going to bring to the table. As far as I can tell, mostly we're arguing at cross purposes. I'm arguing that saying people who buy a single bottle of water maybe 5 times a year are "lazy and apathetic" and a "sign of mental decline" is an unreasonable and inconsistent view. This is given the other choices that most people make on a daily basis (including say, buying a phone, using electricity etc. etc.). You're arguing... something to do with people who buy large quantities of bottled water? This is a point I'm not even disputing... > That, and it's not just a matter of energy. What about the litter? What about BPS/BPA leaching? What about the neglect of public systems because everyone with a little extra cash just says "not my problem" and buys a case of Nestle every week? People who buy a case of Nestle every week are a separate issue, and not what I was discussing at all (please see the thread I'm responding to). It may be possible to make a reasonable case for dissuading people from purchasing bottled water in large quantities (you might try and do that through social pressure/marketing, or taxation or some other method).
rando444 9y ago
Anecdotally I know zero people who wash their water bottles once a day, and have known nobody that has ever attributed sickness to this. And yet, decades later everyone seems to be doing just fine. If you're going to suggest such extreme measures are the only way to drink out of a reusable bottle, you should cite a better source than "the good housekeeping institute's youtube channel"
- new299 9y ago
  Hmmm, well there's this small study: http://www.treadmillreviews.net/water-bottle-germs-revealed/ http://www.treadmillreviews.net/water-bottle-germs-revealed/ So it seems likely that there's bacterial buildup. But I'd be interested in further reviews, more data. > If you're going to suggest such extreme measures I'm not suggesting any measures (and is using soap an extreme measure?). But it doesn't seem completely wasteful and a "sign of mental decline" to want to buy bottled water in certain situations, as another poster was suggesting. People are different, and have different requirements are priorities. It's absolutely possible of course that we might determine that the environmental costs associated with bottled water production are too high a burden on society. And that they should be outlawed. But that's a different discussion (and obviously if this is required there are many other items that would likely also be outlawed).
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - gt_ 9y ago
    I don't think the "treadmill experts" at treadmillreviews.net are any more reputable than Good Housekeeping's youtube channel. In response to your platitude on the environmental impact, I assume you don't mean 'literal species extinction' because of your optimism that it will be repaired once found. So, you need to define what you mean by "too high a burden." Your opposition's argument is that it's "unnecessary" which is measurable and, in my view, not disproven in the research from the treadmill experts. "People are different, and have different requirements and priorities" is an intellectual dead end.
brixon 9y ago
I visually inspect and smell it first. If it passes those then it might get reused up to a week before washing especially if it only held water. I am also starting to see a lot more people with the Stainless Steel insulated cups (i.e. Yeti Tumblers) than water bottles.
Pulcinella 9y ago
I always saw plastic bag bans as more of a “civic aesthetics” thing than strictly an environmental one (though there is that too.) Disposable plastic bags are an eyesore and a blight on the landscape.

by new299 9y ago

new299 9y ago

If I'm going to be downvoted... some kind of counterpoint or explanation would help progress the discussion, and avoid my making similar errors in the future.

nkrisc 9y ago
I wasn't one who downvoted you but it might be because it sounds as if you're suggesting that there's something wrong with taking an easy and less impactful action when there are more impactful, but much harder actions. One does not preclude the other. Yes, targeting plastic shopping bags is easy, and yes the packaging the items come in is probably worse, but why not take the easy action anyway? What's your point?
- new299 9y ago
  Ah, if that's the case I guess I didn't make my point clearly. Absolutely, it's fine and I personally feel, a great idea to use reusable bags (and water bottles). The difficulty comes if people apply social pressure and say "why are you still using non-reusable bags that you are lazy and apathetic, and it's a sign of societies mental decline" (those are rephrased statements used elsewhere in this discussion). Because there can be good reasons for using a non-reusable bags (or water bottles) in certain situations, and there are likely value judgments you make that have equal (or greater) environmental impact which have similar utility.
jstewartmobile 9y ago
I didn't downvote you. I just thought you were being pedantic. It's not like you need a peer-reviewed study to establish that we're wasting gas and plastic on something people did just fine without a couple generations ago.
- new299 9y ago
  I'd need a peer reviewed study yes. To understand it in the context of all the other things we waste gas and plastic on. A single plane flight uses more energy than all the bottles of water I'm likely to consume in a lifetime (many times more). So.. it seems odd to me to single out bottled water and say those people are the sign of "mental decline" and "lazy and apathetic" (as other commenters have suggested). And what's surprising is that it feels like people are saying: "those are they bad guys... the guys buying bottled water... buying multiple other items with equal or more packaging on a daily basis and buying smartphones, and PCs, and taking international flights, that's fine that's "justifiable"". In my mind, if bottled water is "lazy and apathetic" and a sign of "mental decline". It's not clear that all those other things aren't too.
  - jstewartmobile 9y ago
    We're really arguing value systems here, so I don't see what a study is going to bring to the table. That, and it's not just a matter of energy. What about the litter? What about BPS/BPA leaching? What about the neglect of public systems because everyone with a little extra cash just says "not my problem" and buys a case of Nestle every week?
    - new299 9y ago
      > We're really arguing value systems here, so I don't see what a study is going to bring to the table. As far as I can tell, mostly we're arguing at cross purposes. I'm arguing that saying people who buy a single bottle of water maybe 5 times a year are "lazy and apathetic" and a "sign of mental decline" is an unreasonable and inconsistent view. This is given the other choices that most people make on a daily basis (including say, buying a phone, using electricity etc. etc.). You're arguing... something to do with people who buy large quantities of bottled water? This is a point I'm not even disputing... > That, and it's not just a matter of energy. What about the litter? What about BPS/BPA leaching? What about the neglect of public systems because everyone with a little extra cash just says "not my problem" and buys a case of Nestle every week? People who buy a case of Nestle every week are a separate issue, and not what I was discussing at all (please see the thread I'm responding to). It may be possible to make a reasonable case for dissuading people from purchasing bottled water in large quantities (you might try and do that through social pressure/marketing, or taxation or some other method).

rando444 9y ago

Anecdotally I know zero people who wash their water bottles once a day, and have known nobody that has ever attributed sickness to this. And yet, decades later everyone seems to be doing just fine. If you're going to suggest such extreme measures are the only way to drink out of a reusable bottle, you should cite a better source than "the good housekeeping institute's youtube channel"

new299 9y ago
Hmmm, well there's this small study: http://www.treadmillreviews.net/water-bottle-germs-revealed/ http://www.treadmillreviews.net/water-bottle-germs-revealed/ So it seems likely that there's bacterial buildup. But I'd be interested in further reviews, more data. > If you're going to suggest such extreme measures I'm not suggesting any measures (and is using soap an extreme measure?). But it doesn't seem completely wasteful and a "sign of mental decline" to want to buy bottled water in certain situations, as another poster was suggesting. People are different, and have different requirements are priorities. It's absolutely possible of course that we might determine that the environmental costs associated with bottled water production are too high a burden on society. And that they should be outlawed. But that's a different discussion (and obviously if this is required there are many other items that would likely also be outlawed).
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- gt_ 9y ago
  I don't think the "treadmill experts" at treadmillreviews.net are any more reputable than Good Housekeeping's youtube channel. In response to your platitude on the environmental impact, I assume you don't mean 'literal species extinction' because of your optimism that it will be repaired once found. So, you need to define what you mean by "too high a burden." Your opposition's argument is that it's "unnecessary" which is measurable and, in my view, not disproven in the research from the treadmill experts. "People are different, and have different requirements and priorities" is an intellectual dead end.

brixon 9y ago

I visually inspect and smell it first. If it passes those then it might get reused up to a week before washing especially if it only held water. I am also starting to see a lot more people with the Stainless Steel insulated cups (i.e. Yeti Tumblers) than water bottles.

Pulcinella 9y ago

I always saw plastic bag bans as more of a “civic aesthetics” thing than strictly an environmental one (though there is that too.) Disposable plastic bags are an eyesore and a blight on the landscape.