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Horrible story, and I totally empathize with their situation. yes, the US is practically insane sometimes in how they deal with sexuality and minors, and yes th

Horrible story, and I totally empathize with their situation. yes, the US is practically insane sometimes in how they deal with sexuality and minors, and yes there's a history of witch hunts in this area. all horrible. That said, they did make 2 very big mistakes, and if they hadn't done either or both of them, none of the rest would have happened. first, they took pictures of the kids naked. two, they let those pictures get into the hands of strangers, ones who can then misinterpret and/or be legally obliged to do certain actions which could start a witch hunt. These people knew they were innocent, that's fine, but the problem is that from a stranger's POV, what they see is that two adult men went into the forest with some some kids, some of the kids got naked, they took photos of it. Connect the dots. It paints a bad picture. They were incredibly naive to have not realized this ahead of time. But yes, we have a horrible system, and we need to find some way to make it better so we can protect children while at the same time not persecuting innocent adults. I'm not quite sure how we can do that.

logic 16y ago
My parents had childhood pictures of me, developed through the local grocery store, completely naked aside from a few layers of mud and a huge grin on my face. My teenage self might not have appreciated the opportunity to grandstand in such a manner quite as much. (I honestly thought I'd found and destroyed all of the copies. My parents were much sneakier than I gave them credit for.) My adult self thinks it's all rather funny. Almost every other child I grew up with had "nekkid pictures" of them, taken by their parents: bathing, having done something foolish or amusing, or just generally running around the house like kids do. Your post paints you as a reasonable person, and that actually terrifies me: a reasonable person shouldn't see an error in judgement here. These were parents doing what parents do, taking pictures of their kids doing what kids do. Proud parents, possibly thinking, "we'll embarrass the hell out of them when they're 16". (I may be projecting a bit of my father here.) We're shaping a society that's cynical and distrustful, and it starts with reasonable people associating behavior like this with phrases like "they should have known better".
- mkramlich 16y ago
  I didn't say we want to live in a world like this. I'm saying this is the world we live in. A reasonable, non-naive person would think twice about taking pictures of a kid naked, if they had any knowledge of the current state of society & laws in the US. This position should not terrify you. If there's no upside to it, but a pretty significant downside, then don't do it. Exercise willpower. To put it another way, it's like running across a highway at rush hour. Why do it? Upside is a brief thrill (if you survive). Downside is you die horribly. Conclusion: don't do it.
  - Groxx 16y ago
    The position of the laws being used in this way should be terrifying to you, however. This was waiting in line at an ice cream station, it's been made into a highway at rush hour with automated turrets and trigger-happy assault-rifle-wielding idiots patrolling.
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
  - caf 16y ago
    It is deeply terrifying that we should not just self-censor completely innocent acts, but that you think it should be second nature to any "reasonable, non-naive person". Avoiding completely normal behaviour because of a fear of constant surveillance and being turned in by those around you? This does not strike you as completely f*cked up?
    - mkramlich 16y ago
      What is "normal" is subjective and varies by person and society. Would you agree with that? Some people don't think it's normal to want to photograph children naked. Others do. Some may not think it's abnormal, but on the other hand think it is not wise. Clearly, you think it's okay to do. Or you just think it is not unwise, or should not be banned. Those are each distinct nuanced states of mind on the matter. That's fine. I don't see where all this "being terrified" angle is coming from actually. I guess I have a different understanding of the word terror and terrifying. Having an awareness of the state of one's society is a useful thing. To be aware of possibilities, and make choices accordingly I'd argue is a smart thing. It's not being fucked up, it's being wise and pragmatic. As was shown in the OA, in theory everybody is innocent until proven guilty. But in practice, especially regarding this particular issue, it's effectively the opposite. Clearly we want to change that. But the world is not like that at the moment. Should we try to make it better? Yes. Can we make it better? Possibly not. Should we do the wisest thing in the meantime? You'll probably have a happier life if you do, but it is up to you whether the tradeoff is worth it. From my perspective, there's almost no upside and therefore no tradeoff to consider. YMMV. But do not be "terrified" of my position. Be terrified of a giant flying shark in the night or something. But not something like this. :P
dotBen 16y ago
Yes, I completely agree with the naivity aspect. As I read this I thought to myself "if you've bought a disposable camera that will need to be professionally developed why are you taking naked photos of your children?". Use a digital camera or skip the nakedness. It's like me (a pasty faced white geek) taking my sports car out for a cruise around Bay Shore and Hunters Point here in San Francisco (big crime, gang and drug activity). Sure there is nothing illegal for going for a drive in any part of the city, but I'm going to get stopped by a police cruiser on the suspicion of looking to score drugs or prostitutes. Even if I'm not doing anything illegal whatsoever, it's naive to think it isn't going to raise suspicion and investigation.
- sliverstorm 16y ago
  Similarly, a friend and I were up in the mountains (halfway between our houses) once late at night on the side of the road to talk about some heavy stuff in our lives. Pair of police cruisers pulled over completely unprompted and confronted us, ran our registration and driver's licences, and gave us a lecture on speeding & racing. I don't blame them, and in fact I'm happy they were doing that, especially as they weren't assholes about it. They are trying to fight the death rate up there, and as they can't be everywhere at once, they were just doing all they could to proactively prevent. I think it'd be totally unreasonable to get upset over that. Sure, it'd have been a bit nicer of an evening if the cops didn't pay us a visit, but we were giving off some warning signs (being there late in coupes) so they checked us out, end of story.
Confusion 16y ago
Connect the dots. It paints a bad picture. They already got to you :(. In other words: no it bloody doesn't paint a bad picture. It paints a picture that is completely regular in 999 out of a 1000 cases. If you think it paints a bad picture, then you've already been convinced by them to such an extent that you feel their reasoning is justified. It isn't. The clerk was wrong to suspect anything from the photos. Completely, utterly, wrong. first, they took pictures of the kids naked. two, they let those pictures get into the hands of strangers, ones who can then misinterpret and/or be legally obliged to do certain actions which could start a witch hunt. Right, and you think my parents, and all those others, developed their own photos when I was running around butt naked on some beach 28 years ago? It's a cultural change for the worse; nothing inherent in the photos.
- mkramlich 16y ago
  nobody got to me
run4yourlives 16y ago
first, they took pictures of the kids naked. What is this world coming to when this is considered "a mistake"?
mkramlich 16y ago
the voting system is broken if my comment was brought to -2. just because someone may disagree with the comment doesn't mean my karma should be lowered. that just encourages groupthink and political correctness. not cool. to fix i propose allowing only a small number of trusted admins to be able to bring a comment below 1.

logic 16y ago

My parents had childhood pictures of me, developed through the local grocery store, completely naked aside from a few layers of mud and a huge grin on my face. My teenage self might not have appreciated the opportunity to grandstand in such a manner quite as much. (I honestly thought I'd found and destroyed all of the copies. My parents were much sneakier than I gave them credit for.) My adult self thinks it's all rather funny. Almost every other child I grew up with had "nekkid pictures" of them, taken by their parents: bathing, having done something foolish or amusing, or just generally running around the house like kids do. Your post paints you as a reasonable person, and that actually terrifies me: a reasonable person shouldn't see an error in judgement here. These were parents doing what parents do, taking pictures of their kids doing what kids do. Proud parents, possibly thinking, "we'll embarrass the hell out of them when they're 16". (I may be projecting a bit of my father here.) We're shaping a society that's cynical and distrustful, and it starts with reasonable people associating behavior like this with phrases like "they should have known better".

mkramlich 16y ago
I didn't say we want to live in a world like this. I'm saying this is the world we live in. A reasonable, non-naive person would think twice about taking pictures of a kid naked, if they had any knowledge of the current state of society & laws in the US. This position should not terrify you. If there's no upside to it, but a pretty significant downside, then don't do it. Exercise willpower. To put it another way, it's like running across a highway at rush hour. Why do it? Upside is a brief thrill (if you survive). Downside is you die horribly. Conclusion: don't do it.
- Groxx 16y ago
  The position of the laws being used in this way should be terrifying to you, however. This was waiting in line at an ice cream station, it's been made into a highway at rush hour with automated turrets and trigger-happy assault-rifle-wielding idiots patrolling.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- caf 16y ago
  It is deeply terrifying that we should not just self-censor completely innocent acts, but that you think it should be second nature to any "reasonable, non-naive person". Avoiding completely normal behaviour because of a fear of constant surveillance and being turned in by those around you? This does not strike you as completely f*cked up?
  - mkramlich 16y ago
    What is "normal" is subjective and varies by person and society. Would you agree with that? Some people don't think it's normal to want to photograph children naked. Others do. Some may not think it's abnormal, but on the other hand think it is not wise. Clearly, you think it's okay to do. Or you just think it is not unwise, or should not be banned. Those are each distinct nuanced states of mind on the matter. That's fine. I don't see where all this "being terrified" angle is coming from actually. I guess I have a different understanding of the word terror and terrifying. Having an awareness of the state of one's society is a useful thing. To be aware of possibilities, and make choices accordingly I'd argue is a smart thing. It's not being fucked up, it's being wise and pragmatic. As was shown in the OA, in theory everybody is innocent until proven guilty. But in practice, especially regarding this particular issue, it's effectively the opposite. Clearly we want to change that. But the world is not like that at the moment. Should we try to make it better? Yes. Can we make it better? Possibly not. Should we do the wisest thing in the meantime? You'll probably have a happier life if you do, but it is up to you whether the tradeoff is worth it. From my perspective, there's almost no upside and therefore no tradeoff to consider. YMMV. But do not be "terrified" of my position. Be terrified of a giant flying shark in the night or something. But not something like this. :P

dotBen 16y ago

Yes, I completely agree with the naivity aspect. As I read this I thought to myself "if you've bought a disposable camera that will need to be professionally developed why are you taking naked photos of your children?". Use a digital camera or skip the nakedness. It's like me (a pasty faced white geek) taking my sports car out for a cruise around Bay Shore and Hunters Point here in San Francisco (big crime, gang and drug activity). Sure there is nothing illegal for going for a drive in any part of the city, but I'm going to get stopped by a police cruiser on the suspicion of looking to score drugs or prostitutes. Even if I'm not doing anything illegal whatsoever, it's naive to think it isn't going to raise suspicion and investigation.

sliverstorm 16y ago
Similarly, a friend and I were up in the mountains (halfway between our houses) once late at night on the side of the road to talk about some heavy stuff in our lives. Pair of police cruisers pulled over completely unprompted and confronted us, ran our registration and driver's licences, and gave us a lecture on speeding & racing. I don't blame them, and in fact I'm happy they were doing that, especially as they weren't assholes about it. They are trying to fight the death rate up there, and as they can't be everywhere at once, they were just doing all they could to proactively prevent. I think it'd be totally unreasonable to get upset over that. Sure, it'd have been a bit nicer of an evening if the cops didn't pay us a visit, but we were giving off some warning signs (being there late in coupes) so they checked us out, end of story.

Confusion 16y ago

Connect the dots. It paints a bad picture. They already got to you :(. In other words: no it bloody doesn't paint a bad picture. It paints a picture that is completely regular in 999 out of a 1000 cases. If you think it paints a bad picture, then you've already been convinced by them to such an extent that you feel their reasoning is justified. It isn't. The clerk was wrong to suspect anything from the photos. Completely, utterly, wrong. first, they took pictures of the kids naked. two, they let those pictures get into the hands of strangers, ones who can then misinterpret and/or be legally obliged to do certain actions which could start a witch hunt. Right, and you think my parents, and all those others, developed their own photos when I was running around butt naked on some beach 28 years ago? It's a cultural change for the worse; nothing inherent in the photos.

mkramlich 16y ago
nobody got to me

run4yourlives 16y ago

first, they took pictures of the kids naked. What is this world coming to when this is considered "a mistake"?

mkramlich 16y ago

the voting system is broken if my comment was brought to -2. just because someone may disagree with the comment doesn't mean my karma should be lowered. that just encourages groupthink and political correctness. not cool. to fix i propose allowing only a small number of trusted admins to be able to bring a comment below 1.