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This is anti-advice. This is like telling depressed people to be happy or victims of violence with PTSD to 'grow a pair' and 'snap out of it'. This is the kin

This is anti-advice. This is like telling depressed people to be happy or victims of violence with PTSD to 'grow a pair' and 'snap out of it'. This is the kind of simplistic, unhelpful, shaming advice that keeps mental illness taboo.

lkozma 9y ago
I think you misrepresent the parent post. Suppose you had insomnia. Wouldn't it be a fair suggestion to cut back on coffee and other stimulants first, before trying sleeping pills?
- unfamiliar 9y ago
  I think the point is that by the nature of ADHD telling people to "get off the internet" as a solution to the problem would be more akin to telling the insomniac "just stop staying awake all the time!"
  - beagle3 9y ago
    Not really. Leaving a phone at home and taking a notebook or book with you while sitting outside is not like "stop staying awake". It will, in fact, get you off the Internet and is unlikely to result in withdrawal symptoms for most people. Unlike "stop staying awake" which is not actionable. A book might not be a good suggestion for everyone, and finding the right "off internet thinking environment" is not easy for some, but it's doable for most.
    - eeZah7Ux 9y ago
      > Unlike "stop staying awake" which is not actionable. That's the problem: you think "stop staying awake" is not actionable, while "leave your phone at home" is actionable for a person with ADHD. Again, this is not different than saying "just be happy" to a depressed person. To that person, in that moment, "stop wasting time on the internet" is not actionable just as much, otherwise it would not be a problem in the first place.
      - lkozma 9y ago
        Going with your examples, I think "leave your phone at home" is more actionable than "stop wasting time on the internet", and both are vastly more actionable than "stop staying awake" and "just be happy".
        kazagistar 9y ago
        Right, and his point is that actionability of advice depends on brain configuration. I have no problem lifting my mood, or falling asleep. So those actually seem more actionable to me. However, I have empathy for people whose brains work differently, who struggle with different things, and who might need intense therapy and medication just to stay afloat at these kinds of mental tasks.
      - OJFord 9y ago
        > you think "stop staying awake" is not actionable, while "leave your phone at home" is actionable for a person with ADHD. I'm not an insomniac; nor do I have ADHD, as far I know. I assure you that I cannot action an instruction to 'stop staying awake'. I certainly can 'leave [my] phone at home', and frequently do.
coldtea 9y ago
>This is like telling depressed people to be happy or victims of violence with PTSD to 'grow a pair' and 'snap out of it'. It might go against the "just feed them drugs" mentality, but lots of times it totally works. They had plenty of "traumatic stress" before the 21st century, in all parts of the world -- huge wars, conflicts, disasters, even genocide. But those involved (like older friends and relatives that have survived bombings and wars and dictatorship) also could grow a pair and snap out of it, and even thrive afterwards. I don't believe they had a different DNA or mental wiring back then. At an FDA hearing on March 23, 2006, I testified: “Saying any psychiatric diagnosis ‘is a brain-based problem and that the medications are normalizing function’ is an anti-scientific, pro-drug lie” [ 14]. Yet this has become standard practice throughout medicine, for example, at the American Psychiatric Association [ 15], American Medical Association [ 16], American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, American Academy of Pediatrics, Child Neurology Society, American Academy of Family Physicians [ 17], FDA [ 13], and virtually all US government health-care agencies. Journal articles [ 6], press releases, ads [ 18], drug inserts, and research informed consent documents say, or infer, that psychological diagnoses are abnormalities/diseases. All patients and research participants with psychological problems are led to believe they have an abnormality/disease, biasing them in favor of medical interventions, and against nonmedical interventions (e.g., love, will power, or talk therapy), which presume, as is the case, that the individual is physically and medically normal and without need of a medical/pharmaceutical intervention. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1518691/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1518691/ Currently, depression is not diagnosed via objective chemical tests, nor is treatment guided by any such tests. If depression did result primarily from a known chemical imbalance, such tests would likely be available and in widespread use, and depression would be easily and quickly resolved for most patients. Luckily, a number of effective interventions are available for treating depression. Such interventions include a variety of pharmacological as well as nonpharmacological approaches, sometimes used alone and sometimes in combination with one another http://www.brown.uk.com/brownlibrary/france.pdf http://www.brown.uk.com/brownlibrary/france.pdf
- taway_1212 9y ago
  > They had plenty of "traumatic stress" before the 21st century, in all parts of the world -- huge wars, conflicts, disasters, even genocide. But those involved (like older friends and relatives that have survived bombings and wars and dictatorship) also could grow a pair and snap out of it, and even thrive afterwards. To the contrary, I think the past generations of my family who have survived WW2 and Stalinism were, till the end of their days, heavily impaired by it. They "snapped out of it" to the degree that was required for not starving, but I would not say they had developed nearly up to their full potential.
scaryclam 9y ago
It's more like telling a person with symptoms of depression or PTSD that they should see a therapist to get to the bottom of things rather than just popping pills. In fact, PTSD suffers really should be in therapy instead of on a drug regimen. Many people are wrongly diagnosed with a depressive illness when they have psychological problems better addressed by therapy, so it's actually good advice and can avoid a lifetime of drug dependance that doesn't solve the actual problem.

lkozma 9y ago

I think you misrepresent the parent post. Suppose you had insomnia. Wouldn't it be a fair suggestion to cut back on coffee and other stimulants first, before trying sleeping pills?

unfamiliar 9y ago
I think the point is that by the nature of ADHD telling people to "get off the internet" as a solution to the problem would be more akin to telling the insomniac "just stop staying awake all the time!"
- beagle3 9y ago
  Not really. Leaving a phone at home and taking a notebook or book with you while sitting outside is not like "stop staying awake". It will, in fact, get you off the Internet and is unlikely to result in withdrawal symptoms for most people. Unlike "stop staying awake" which is not actionable. A book might not be a good suggestion for everyone, and finding the right "off internet thinking environment" is not easy for some, but it's doable for most.
  - eeZah7Ux 9y ago
    > Unlike "stop staying awake" which is not actionable. That's the problem: you think "stop staying awake" is not actionable, while "leave your phone at home" is actionable for a person with ADHD. Again, this is not different than saying "just be happy" to a depressed person. To that person, in that moment, "stop wasting time on the internet" is not actionable just as much, otherwise it would not be a problem in the first place.
    - lkozma 9y ago
      Going with your examples, I think "leave your phone at home" is more actionable than "stop wasting time on the internet", and both are vastly more actionable than "stop staying awake" and "just be happy".
      - kazagistar 9y ago
        Right, and his point is that actionability of advice depends on brain configuration. I have no problem lifting my mood, or falling asleep. So those actually seem more actionable to me. However, I have empathy for people whose brains work differently, who struggle with different things, and who might need intense therapy and medication just to stay afloat at these kinds of mental tasks.
    - OJFord 9y ago
      > you think "stop staying awake" is not actionable, while "leave your phone at home" is actionable for a person with ADHD. I'm not an insomniac; nor do I have ADHD, as far I know. I assure you that I cannot action an instruction to 'stop staying awake'. I certainly can 'leave [my] phone at home', and frequently do.

coldtea 9y ago

>This is like telling depressed people to be happy or victims of violence with PTSD to 'grow a pair' and 'snap out of it'. It might go against the "just feed them drugs" mentality, but lots of times it totally works. They had plenty of "traumatic stress" before the 21st century, in all parts of the world -- huge wars, conflicts, disasters, even genocide. But those involved (like older friends and relatives that have survived bombings and wars and dictatorship) also could grow a pair and snap out of it, and even thrive afterwards. I don't believe they had a different DNA or mental wiring back then. At an FDA hearing on March 23, 2006, I testified: “Saying any psychiatric diagnosis ‘is a brain-based problem and that the medications are normalizing function’ is an anti-scientific, pro-drug lie” [ 14]. Yet this has become standard practice throughout medicine, for example, at the American Psychiatric Association [ 15], American Medical Association [ 16], American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, American Academy of Pediatrics, Child Neurology Society, American Academy of Family Physicians [ 17], FDA [ 13], and virtually all US government health-care agencies. Journal articles [ 6], press releases, ads [ 18], drug inserts, and research informed consent documents say, or infer, that psychological diagnoses are abnormalities/diseases. All patients and research participants with psychological problems are led to believe they have an abnormality/disease, biasing them in favor of medical interventions, and against nonmedical interventions (e.g., love, will power, or talk therapy), which presume, as is the case, that the individual is physically and medically normal and without need of a medical/pharmaceutical intervention. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1518691/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1518691/ Currently, depression is not diagnosed via objective chemical tests, nor is treatment guided by any such tests. If depression did result primarily from a known chemical imbalance, such tests would likely be available and in widespread use, and depression would be easily and quickly resolved for most patients. Luckily, a number of effective interventions are available for treating depression. Such interventions include a variety of pharmacological as well as nonpharmacological approaches, sometimes used alone and sometimes in combination with one another http://www.brown.uk.com/brownlibrary/france.pdf http://www.brown.uk.com/brownlibrary/france.pdf

taway_1212 9y ago
> They had plenty of "traumatic stress" before the 21st century, in all parts of the world -- huge wars, conflicts, disasters, even genocide. But those involved (like older friends and relatives that have survived bombings and wars and dictatorship) also could grow a pair and snap out of it, and even thrive afterwards. To the contrary, I think the past generations of my family who have survived WW2 and Stalinism were, till the end of their days, heavily impaired by it. They "snapped out of it" to the degree that was required for not starving, but I would not say they had developed nearly up to their full potential.

scaryclam 9y ago

It's more like telling a person with symptoms of depression or PTSD that they should see a therapist to get to the bottom of things rather than just popping pills. In fact, PTSD suffers really should be in therapy instead of on a drug regimen. Many people are wrongly diagnosed with a depressive illness when they have psychological problems better addressed by therapy, so it's actually good advice and can avoid a lifetime of drug dependance that doesn't solve the actual problem.