4 ms·

Would there be a point to a national ID outside taxation? Is that the only reason a State would need to have identifiers for its citizens? Credit can be managed

Would there be a point to a national ID outside taxation? Is that the only reason a State would need to have identifiers for its citizens? Credit can be managed without centralized identities so what is the nessecity of a State ID?

dummyfunnytoo 9y ago
I didn't really grasp this until I moved to the US... They don't fucking care what makes sense around some issues like this. I've asked seemingly rational colleagues, who work as professional developers, about SSN and national IDs. They've all been completely opposed. Even if they otherwise offer solid opinions on security. Something something, Nazis, something, Hitler would've been even more successful if the Germans had national IDs. Can't trust the federal government to do it. But then they tell me to keep my SSN secret, forever, except that I need to give it to people all the time, and they use the last four digits of it as verification all the time. So you've got a shitty defacto system with zero integrity, basically mandatory use, and that can't be changed. They even print it on paper cards to discourage its use as an id. There is a US national ID. It just sucks and they won't admit how they use it in practice. Sigh..
jononor 9y ago
I have used my national ID for: - Applying for university - Managing my student loan - Registering a company - Delivering taxes - Changing health provider options All online (various different services). This is in Norway. Actually the electronic state ID systems supports multiple identity providers, I mostly use the one from my bank. Which them also covers all my banking needs.
dsfyu404ed 9y ago
State IDs manage state administered stuff. E.g. your driver's license. Pretty much every state has a ID that can stand in place of a license for ID but doesn't have anything to do with driving. With current technology there's no technical or practical (other than inertia) reason federal services couldn't use state IDs. There's only 50 states, not N states. A 50-case switch wouldn't be that bad. ID requirements between states aren't so disparate that you couldn't get a good enough mapping. The biggest hurdle to ANY effective ID system for individual people is that ID is a composite key. There are many Joe Smiths in the US. There are many Joe Smiths in a state. There are probably a handful of Joe smiths with the same birth date. There are possibly multiple Joe Smiths born on the same day that look similar and share a zip code. People don't have unique identifiers other than DNA and even then if you don't do a good job processing it you're not guaranteed accuracy and I don't think we're at a point where we trust any .gov with that level of info about us. So far we've been able to squeak by with just using really ugly composite keys.
- groby_b 9y ago
  We're in the process of figuring out composite keys don't work :) And yes, State + State ID is a decent substitute for a national ID. Because it is a national ID. Except that some states will implement it in the shittiest way possible, and so we end up with even more of a lowest common denominator than if the states negotiated a standard. And one could reasonably make the case that in this day and age, IDs fall under the Commerce Clause. Here's the ugly truth: People are objecting to a national ID because it's an easy-to-parrot talking point. The rational objections are on thin ground. (Basically, the downsides are already existing anyways, we're just not getting the upsides. Because ideological purity. Yes, I mean you, ACLU)
walshemj 9y ago
The UK manages well enough with out a national id (seen as to Gestapo). And if the USA had national ID it would be used to harass BME citizens ala Sherif Joe
dboreham 9y ago
The air travel system in the US is run by the Feds. They require identification documents from passengers. This creates a defacto need for a national ID, although at present the issue is being fudged by use of state-issued driver's licenses (which the Feds won't accept as usable in the case of several states).

dummyfunnytoo 9y ago

I didn't really grasp this until I moved to the US... They don't fucking care what makes sense around some issues like this. I've asked seemingly rational colleagues, who work as professional developers, about SSN and national IDs. They've all been completely opposed. Even if they otherwise offer solid opinions on security. Something something, Nazis, something, Hitler would've been even more successful if the Germans had national IDs. Can't trust the federal government to do it. But then they tell me to keep my SSN secret, forever, except that I need to give it to people all the time, and they use the last four digits of it as verification all the time. So you've got a shitty defacto system with zero integrity, basically mandatory use, and that can't be changed. They even print it on paper cards to discourage its use as an id. There is a US national ID. It just sucks and they won't admit how they use it in practice. Sigh..

jononor 9y ago

I have used my national ID for: - Applying for university - Managing my student loan - Registering a company - Delivering taxes - Changing health provider options All online (various different services). This is in Norway. Actually the electronic state ID systems supports multiple identity providers, I mostly use the one from my bank. Which them also covers all my banking needs.

dsfyu404ed 9y ago

State IDs manage state administered stuff. E.g. your driver's license. Pretty much every state has a ID that can stand in place of a license for ID but doesn't have anything to do with driving. With current technology there's no technical or practical (other than inertia) reason federal services couldn't use state IDs. There's only 50 states, not N states. A 50-case switch wouldn't be that bad. ID requirements between states aren't so disparate that you couldn't get a good enough mapping. The biggest hurdle to ANY effective ID system for individual people is that ID is a composite key. There are many Joe Smiths in the US. There are many Joe Smiths in a state. There are probably a handful of Joe smiths with the same birth date. There are possibly multiple Joe Smiths born on the same day that look similar and share a zip code. People don't have unique identifiers other than DNA and even then if you don't do a good job processing it you're not guaranteed accuracy and I don't think we're at a point where we trust any .gov with that level of info about us. So far we've been able to squeak by with just using really ugly composite keys.

groby_b 9y ago
We're in the process of figuring out composite keys don't work :) And yes, State + State ID is a decent substitute for a national ID. Because it is a national ID. Except that some states will implement it in the shittiest way possible, and so we end up with even more of a lowest common denominator than if the states negotiated a standard. And one could reasonably make the case that in this day and age, IDs fall under the Commerce Clause. Here's the ugly truth: People are objecting to a national ID because it's an easy-to-parrot talking point. The rational objections are on thin ground. (Basically, the downsides are already existing anyways, we're just not getting the upsides. Because ideological purity. Yes, I mean you, ACLU)

walshemj 9y ago

The UK manages well enough with out a national id (seen as to Gestapo). And if the USA had national ID it would be used to harass BME citizens ala Sherif Joe

dboreham 9y ago

The air travel system in the US is run by the Feds. They require identification documents from passengers. This creates a defacto need for a national ID, although at present the issue is being fudged by use of state-issued driver's licenses (which the Feds won't accept as usable in the case of several states).