5 ms·

A key question here is what has changed to make these attacks more prevalent. One possibility is it is related to immigration and changing demographics. The are

A key question here is what has changed to make these attacks more prevalent. One possibility is it is related to immigration and changing demographics. The area with the most acid attacks by far, Newham ( http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/acid-attack-capital-britain-revealed-10008792 http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/acid-attack-capital-bri... ) is also very immigrant heavy ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Borough_of_Newham#Demography https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Borough_of_Newham#Demog... ). In this NPR article, the example is of a guy with a white/British name attacking someone of middle eastern heritage -- but I know from experience on news coverage in my own region that NPR cannot be trusted on racial issues to select anecdotes that match the real patterns of behavior. Do any of the Brits here have any more insight on how immigration and changing demographics might be related to these attacks?

hmmmmn 9y ago
There really is no need to pollute HN with your alt-right dogwhistling.
- BanMeAndWin 9y ago
  Member of open-minded community that values data, science, evidence, citations, and proof dismisses strongly correlated conclusion due to ideological insubordination, news at eleven.
  - mcrocop 9y ago
    There is a correlation between the % of Muslim population and # of acid attacks. This could be interpreted different ways (i.e. perhaps Muslims are being targeted by others?)... But to call someone's viewpoint alt-right dogwhistle because they bring up the other obvious possibility is close-minded and is what leads to these sorts of problems in the first place.
    - Latty 9y ago
      > There is a correlation between the % of Muslim population and # of acid attacks. I haven't seen that stated, let alone proven - can you back up that statement?
      - BanMeAndWin 9y ago
        Review increases German acid attacks. Then review increases Swedish acid attacks. Focusing on just the UK as if it was some mystically isolated scenario is intentionally skewing the statistics and the discussion to allow for demographic plausible deniability. I'm not here to assert the correctness of my position, for the record, especially since I've already pointed out one only has to look at similar cases from Germany and Sweden. I've already placed my bets on the inevitable rise of European private prisons within the next ten years.
        Latty 9y ago
        I don't understand your point - the thread is about the issue in the UK - it could be completely different to the issue in other places. Your assertion that it has to be the same is, quite frankly, naive - existing crime levels, media exposure, existing acid attacks could all make the situation massively different. Sounds to me like you are saying you have no evidence for that claim.
      - mcrocop 9y ago
        I don't remember the source but a quick search of distribution: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_London#/media/File:Islam_Greater_London_2011_census.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_London#/media/File:Is... and acid attacks: https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/hd-map-acid-capital-of-britain.jpg?strip=all&w=750 https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/hd-map-a... Again - I'm sure you could locate the source or find much more recent maps to show the correlation. The borough with the second highest Muslim population currently has the highest number of Acid attacks.
        Latty 9y ago
mcrocop 9y ago
Something that is prevalent in the Middle East is now also prevalent in the place where large numbers of people from the Middle East have come to. Something tells me its not a coincidence.
- hmmmmn 9y ago
  > Something tells me its not a coincidence. Yes, that something being racial prejudice. Sad to see this attitude rife on HN.
  - mcrocop 9y ago
    Pretending that cultural differences don't exist on this planet is just plain silly. It's sad to see this level of virtue signalling on HN.
    - hmmmmn 9y ago
      Jumping to conclusions that fit your anti-immigrant racial prejudice, pretending that it’s actually about “cultural differences”, complaining about “virtue signalling”. It’s like playing a game of alt-right bingo here.
    - mcrocop 9y ago
      >Jumping to conclusions that fit your anti-immigrant racial prejudice, pretending that it’s actually about “cultural differences”, complaining about “virtue signalling”. It’s like playing a game of alt-right bingo here. You forgot to call me a "Nazi" and "bigot" and "facist" and all the other things you ANTIFA folks call those who have different opinions than yourselves.
      - hmmmmn 9y ago
        Ah, shoehorning “antifa” into the conversation (with vague insinuations that anti-fascism is somehow a bad thing), that’s another one. How many more alt-right talking points can you squeeze out? Your reaction is so amusingly predictable, it’s sad to see someone so programmed to dullness.
kristianc 9y ago
Honestly, I used to live in Tower Hamlets, another "immigrant heavy" area for three years, and never felt remotely threatened. Neither have the demographics in these areas "changed" much. The east end of London has had a large immigrant population since the 1970s and arguably since the 1700s when the Huguenots arrived from Northern France. The most danger I was ever in was when they discovered an unexploded WWII bomb next to my flat ("The parties we've had in here, if it was going to go, it would have by now"). Acid attacks are so incredibly rare (350 last year) that any increase at all in them is going to represent a large statistical increase. If I had to hazard a guess as to why acid attacks were on the increase, it's because carrying a knife carries with it the chance of losing your own life as well and a life prison sentence if you kill someone. It's also (marginally) easier to argue that you're carrying a corrosive substance innocently than if you're found with a gun/knife. You are still 70x more likely to be involved in a knife attack than an acid attack. Asking why immigration and changing demographics has caused this presupposes there being a racial motive at all. Explicitly asking for evidence which supports your theory suggests you've already made up your mind.
- guildenstern 9y ago
  I live in Tower Hamlets and witnessed an acid attack a few weeks ago, the attacker was white and the victims were white. I don't feel unsafe here either.
bronz 9y ago
it could be that these immigrant areas are host to immigrants because they are poor areas. immigrants coming in with no connections or history in that country, and who probably came from a less wealthy country, would naturally take up residence in a poor area. and in a poor area, crime is higher. including acid attack crimes.
- mcrocop 9y ago
  True. But I think it is the rise in acid attacks that is intriguing. Indeed, a rise in crime in general, and it is correlated, moderately, with Muslim % of population.
Latty 9y ago
A lot of the UK is "immigrant-heavy" (I've lived in Leicester and Boston, both of which fit that bill). Seems highly unlikely to be a causal link unless you can show a pattern across many areas. Seems highly likely to me this is a result of improved and increased pressure over knife crime, pushing criminals into new methods, alongside increased exposure to the idea of acid attacks from news.
mrtksn 9y ago
The US political alt-right narrative doesn't translate well to the UK, there were many news stories about the acid attacks and the TL:DR; was that these attacks used to be directed towards women in conservative muslim immigrant communities but these days it's just a convenient weapon for gang activities and jealous or vindictive lovers - immigrant or not. Why it is a convenient weapon? Cheap to buy and readily available, easy to carry around in a bottle and completely legal(I think that part is changing). Some Immigrant neighbourhoods being poor is nothing new, and poor neighbourhoods suffering from criminal activities is again nothing original. Again, these neighbourhoods are not new and the immigrants hadn't moved there recently. So it doesn't look like some kind of immigrant critical mass was reached and they start throwing acid. So no, you hadn't uncover a mystery or spoken the words that nobody dares to. My guess would be that someone used acid for their criminal activities and had positive(from offender POV) results and it spread out as MOW.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

hmmmmn 9y ago

There really is no need to pollute HN with your alt-right dogwhistling.

BanMeAndWin 9y ago
Member of open-minded community that values data, science, evidence, citations, and proof dismisses strongly correlated conclusion due to ideological insubordination, news at eleven.
- mcrocop 9y ago
  There is a correlation between the % of Muslim population and # of acid attacks. This could be interpreted different ways (i.e. perhaps Muslims are being targeted by others?)... But to call someone's viewpoint alt-right dogwhistle because they bring up the other obvious possibility is close-minded and is what leads to these sorts of problems in the first place.
  - Latty 9y ago
    > There is a correlation between the % of Muslim population and # of acid attacks. I haven't seen that stated, let alone proven - can you back up that statement?
    - BanMeAndWin 9y ago
      Review increases German acid attacks. Then review increases Swedish acid attacks. Focusing on just the UK as if it was some mystically isolated scenario is intentionally skewing the statistics and the discussion to allow for demographic plausible deniability. I'm not here to assert the correctness of my position, for the record, especially since I've already pointed out one only has to look at similar cases from Germany and Sweden. I've already placed my bets on the inevitable rise of European private prisons within the next ten years.
      - Latty 9y ago
        I don't understand your point - the thread is about the issue in the UK - it could be completely different to the issue in other places. Your assertion that it has to be the same is, quite frankly, naive - existing crime levels, media exposure, existing acid attacks could all make the situation massively different. Sounds to me like you are saying you have no evidence for that claim.
    - mcrocop 9y ago
      I don't remember the source but a quick search of distribution: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_London#/media/File:Islam_Greater_London_2011_census.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_London#/media/File:Is... and acid attacks: https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/hd-map-acid-capital-of-britain.jpg?strip=all&w=750 https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/hd-map-a... Again - I'm sure you could locate the source or find much more recent maps to show the correlation. The borough with the second highest Muslim population currently has the highest number of Acid attacks.
      - Latty 9y ago

mcrocop 9y ago

Something that is prevalent in the Middle East is now also prevalent in the place where large numbers of people from the Middle East have come to. Something tells me its not a coincidence.

hmmmmn 9y ago
> Something tells me its not a coincidence. Yes, that something being racial prejudice. Sad to see this attitude rife on HN.
- mcrocop 9y ago
  Pretending that cultural differences don't exist on this planet is just plain silly. It's sad to see this level of virtue signalling on HN.
  - hmmmmn 9y ago
    Jumping to conclusions that fit your anti-immigrant racial prejudice, pretending that it’s actually about “cultural differences”, complaining about “virtue signalling”. It’s like playing a game of alt-right bingo here.
  - mcrocop 9y ago
    >Jumping to conclusions that fit your anti-immigrant racial prejudice, pretending that it’s actually about “cultural differences”, complaining about “virtue signalling”. It’s like playing a game of alt-right bingo here. You forgot to call me a "Nazi" and "bigot" and "facist" and all the other things you ANTIFA folks call those who have different opinions than yourselves.
    - hmmmmn 9y ago
      Ah, shoehorning “antifa” into the conversation (with vague insinuations that anti-fascism is somehow a bad thing), that’s another one. How many more alt-right talking points can you squeeze out? Your reaction is so amusingly predictable, it’s sad to see someone so programmed to dullness.

kristianc 9y ago

Honestly, I used to live in Tower Hamlets, another "immigrant heavy" area for three years, and never felt remotely threatened. Neither have the demographics in these areas "changed" much. The east end of London has had a large immigrant population since the 1970s and arguably since the 1700s when the Huguenots arrived from Northern France. The most danger I was ever in was when they discovered an unexploded WWII bomb next to my flat ("The parties we've had in here, if it was going to go, it would have by now"). Acid attacks are so incredibly rare (350 last year) that any increase at all in them is going to represent a large statistical increase. If I had to hazard a guess as to why acid attacks were on the increase, it's because carrying a knife carries with it the chance of losing your own life as well and a life prison sentence if you kill someone. It's also (marginally) easier to argue that you're carrying a corrosive substance innocently than if you're found with a gun/knife. You are still 70x more likely to be involved in a knife attack than an acid attack. Asking why immigration and changing demographics has caused this presupposes there being a racial motive at all. Explicitly asking for evidence which supports your theory suggests you've already made up your mind.

guildenstern 9y ago
I live in Tower Hamlets and witnessed an acid attack a few weeks ago, the attacker was white and the victims were white. I don't feel unsafe here either.

bronz 9y ago

it could be that these immigrant areas are host to immigrants because they are poor areas. immigrants coming in with no connections or history in that country, and who probably came from a less wealthy country, would naturally take up residence in a poor area. and in a poor area, crime is higher. including acid attack crimes.

mcrocop 9y ago
True. But I think it is the rise in acid attacks that is intriguing. Indeed, a rise in crime in general, and it is correlated, moderately, with Muslim % of population.

Latty 9y ago

A lot of the UK is "immigrant-heavy" (I've lived in Leicester and Boston, both of which fit that bill). Seems highly unlikely to be a causal link unless you can show a pattern across many areas. Seems highly likely to me this is a result of improved and increased pressure over knife crime, pushing criminals into new methods, alongside increased exposure to the idea of acid attacks from news.

mrtksn 9y ago

The US political alt-right narrative doesn't translate well to the UK, there were many news stories about the acid attacks and the TL:DR; was that these attacks used to be directed towards women in conservative muslim immigrant communities but these days it's just a convenient weapon for gang activities and jealous or vindictive lovers - immigrant or not. Why it is a convenient weapon? Cheap to buy and readily available, easy to carry around in a bottle and completely legal(I think that part is changing). Some Immigrant neighbourhoods being poor is nothing new, and poor neighbourhoods suffering from criminal activities is again nothing original. Again, these neighbourhoods are not new and the immigrants hadn't moved there recently. So it doesn't look like some kind of immigrant critical mass was reached and they start throwing acid. So no, you hadn't uncover a mystery or spoken the words that nobody dares to. My guess would be that someone used acid for their criminal activities and had positive(from offender POV) results and it spread out as MOW.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]