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>you've just created communities of people absolutely dependent on UBI. This will be the result of the steady march of automation displacing the human workforc

>you've just created communities of people absolutely dependent on UBI. This will be the result of the steady march of automation displacing the human workforce regardless. Furthermore, the lack of a UBI system in a high unemployment due to automation scenario would lead to complete collapse of the market economy.

ctdonath 9y ago
We went thru "displacing the human workforce" in the Industrial Revolution. Don't worry, we'll create more low-skill jobs - just like we did back then. ...unless legislators continue prohibiting people from working if they can't produce enough value per hour. Minimum wage is "debtor's prison" redux. There's plenty of low-skill low-value jobs I could hire people to do, regardless of technological advancement, if only regulations weren't so oppressive.
- incompatible 9y ago
  Fighting the minimum wage is a political dead end. People won't vote for that, since they believe people who work a full week should have a decent standard of living. That's the case in Australia, at least.
  - Consultant32452 9y ago
    In practice hardly anyone believes people who work a full week should have a decent standard of living. If people actually believed that, then no one would purchase goods manufactured in Mexico, China, etc. Instead, it's more accurate to say that people don't want the inconvenience of actually seeing poor people.
    - incompatible 9y ago
      Self-interest overrides politics in this case. Forcing employers to pay more is also likely to be preferable to helping the low-paid in a way that involved raising taxes.
      - Consultant32452 9y ago
        Of course, but the overriding self interest here is wanting to not be inconvenienced by seeing the poor, not some altruistic idea that everyone who works a full week deserves a wealthy Western-style "living wage." Just starting with the notion that 70% of the world's population lives on less than $10 per day should shine some serious light on how silly the idea is that there's enough resources and money on the planet for everyone to live a lifestyle commensurate with Western "living wage." There's a lot of talk about the 1% lately... if you're in Australia, or America, etc. you're almost certainly in the global 1%, even if you're relatively "poor."
        incompatible 9y ago
        Shortage of money is never the issue, governments can print as much as they like. Supply of labour obviously isn't an issue either. The question is why this labour can't be used to produce goods and services in the way that Western countries manage to do, and the answers probably relate to education, poor practices in government and society such as corruption, or lack of capital (in the form of buildings, machinery, roads etc.)
    - incompatible 9y ago
      Also, self-interest is involved in maintaining the minimum wage, since people may imagine that if wages are dragged down at the lower end, it may pull them down at higher levels too. Minimum wages in other countries don't matter, since they have no intention of working in those countries. Do people care if wages are higher than they should be, according to supply and demand, and causing some underemployment? Even economists don't seem to agree on the effect of minimum wages. Generally, I'd guess people want more pay for themselves, up to the point that they genuinely fear their own unemployment. It seems that both employees and employers prefer to keep wages a bit over the equilibrium level.
      - Consultant32452 9y ago
        Yes, people care if wages are higher than they should be. Were you not around when all the $15 minimum wage discussions were going on? In a thread earlier about FedEx using the old "private contractor" schtick with their drivers someone made the relative comparison to pizza delivery drivers. Specifically they said that since FedEx drivers don't get benefits, retirement, etc. that they are basically glorified pizza delivery drivers. The presumption there is that FedEx drivers aren't getting paid "enough" and also that a pizza delivery driver who got those things would be getting paid "too much."
        incompatible 9y ago
        $15 minimum wage discussions, in the US? I only vaguely remember it. I'm in Australia and the minimum wage is currently $18.29 AUD (I suppose a bit under $15 USD). I'd say anybody suggesting it should be cut would have no ambition of ever being elected to a political office. It's funny how people have such ideas about who "deserves" to be paid how much. It has nothing to do with supply and demand, making the labour "market" somewhat dysfunctional when judged as a market.
        Consultant32452 9y ago
        I agree with you about the market. In this case there was a political candidate who ran on a policy which included raising the minimum wage to $15/hr from its current $7-something. There was a lot of fuss both ways about how minimum wage jobs were designed for high school kids vs there's lots of adults making minimum wage and they deserve a living wage, etc.
    - viraptor 9y ago
      I guess this is the usual "hate the game not the player" situation. I wish there was more local products. I'm willing to make sacrifices and vote with my wallet to make that happen. (And I do when it's a realistic alternative) But I can't do that naked - and living in a smallish town, I'd be surprised if I could buy a full set of clothes here which is not produced in China/India/Pakistan/Thailand. (Without going a few hours to the nearest city) Yes, everybody who works full week should earn enough to make a living. The fact that I'm wearing a t-shirt made in China is mixed up in this in complex ways, but it doesn't change my position.
      - Consultant32452 9y ago
        Again, if people were really interested in this then protectionist economic policy would be a major topic in every election. It's worth noting that Barak Obama, in the primaries, campaigned on a platform of renegotiating NAFTA to not fuck over American workers so hard. Then, after the primaries, that topic vanished and once elected he tried to pass TPP which would've been just as bad for American workers as NAFTA. Then of course Trump campaigned on the same issue, but he's Trump and there's not really anything more to say about that.

ctdonath 9y ago

We went thru "displacing the human workforce" in the Industrial Revolution. Don't worry, we'll create more low-skill jobs - just like we did back then. ...unless legislators continue prohibiting people from working if they can't produce enough value per hour. Minimum wage is "debtor's prison" redux. There's plenty of low-skill low-value jobs I could hire people to do, regardless of technological advancement, if only regulations weren't so oppressive.

incompatible 9y ago
Fighting the minimum wage is a political dead end. People won't vote for that, since they believe people who work a full week should have a decent standard of living. That's the case in Australia, at least.
- Consultant32452 9y ago
  In practice hardly anyone believes people who work a full week should have a decent standard of living. If people actually believed that, then no one would purchase goods manufactured in Mexico, China, etc. Instead, it's more accurate to say that people don't want the inconvenience of actually seeing poor people.
  - incompatible 9y ago
    Self-interest overrides politics in this case. Forcing employers to pay more is also likely to be preferable to helping the low-paid in a way that involved raising taxes.
    - Consultant32452 9y ago
      Of course, but the overriding self interest here is wanting to not be inconvenienced by seeing the poor, not some altruistic idea that everyone who works a full week deserves a wealthy Western-style "living wage." Just starting with the notion that 70% of the world's population lives on less than $10 per day should shine some serious light on how silly the idea is that there's enough resources and money on the planet for everyone to live a lifestyle commensurate with Western "living wage." There's a lot of talk about the 1% lately... if you're in Australia, or America, etc. you're almost certainly in the global 1%, even if you're relatively "poor."
      - incompatible 9y ago
        Shortage of money is never the issue, governments can print as much as they like. Supply of labour obviously isn't an issue either. The question is why this labour can't be used to produce goods and services in the way that Western countries manage to do, and the answers probably relate to education, poor practices in government and society such as corruption, or lack of capital (in the form of buildings, machinery, roads etc.)
  - incompatible 9y ago
    Also, self-interest is involved in maintaining the minimum wage, since people may imagine that if wages are dragged down at the lower end, it may pull them down at higher levels too. Minimum wages in other countries don't matter, since they have no intention of working in those countries. Do people care if wages are higher than they should be, according to supply and demand, and causing some underemployment? Even economists don't seem to agree on the effect of minimum wages. Generally, I'd guess people want more pay for themselves, up to the point that they genuinely fear their own unemployment. It seems that both employees and employers prefer to keep wages a bit over the equilibrium level.
    - Consultant32452 9y ago
      Yes, people care if wages are higher than they should be. Were you not around when all the $15 minimum wage discussions were going on? In a thread earlier about FedEx using the old "private contractor" schtick with their drivers someone made the relative comparison to pizza delivery drivers. Specifically they said that since FedEx drivers don't get benefits, retirement, etc. that they are basically glorified pizza delivery drivers. The presumption there is that FedEx drivers aren't getting paid "enough" and also that a pizza delivery driver who got those things would be getting paid "too much."
      - incompatible 9y ago
        $15 minimum wage discussions, in the US? I only vaguely remember it. I'm in Australia and the minimum wage is currently $18.29 AUD (I suppose a bit under $15 USD). I'd say anybody suggesting it should be cut would have no ambition of ever being elected to a political office. It's funny how people have such ideas about who "deserves" to be paid how much. It has nothing to do with supply and demand, making the labour "market" somewhat dysfunctional when judged as a market.
        Consultant32452 9y ago
        I agree with you about the market. In this case there was a political candidate who ran on a policy which included raising the minimum wage to $15/hr from its current $7-something. There was a lot of fuss both ways about how minimum wage jobs were designed for high school kids vs there's lots of adults making minimum wage and they deserve a living wage, etc.
  - viraptor 9y ago
    I guess this is the usual "hate the game not the player" situation. I wish there was more local products. I'm willing to make sacrifices and vote with my wallet to make that happen. (And I do when it's a realistic alternative) But I can't do that naked - and living in a smallish town, I'd be surprised if I could buy a full set of clothes here which is not produced in China/India/Pakistan/Thailand. (Without going a few hours to the nearest city) Yes, everybody who works full week should earn enough to make a living. The fact that I'm wearing a t-shirt made in China is mixed up in this in complex ways, but it doesn't change my position.
    - Consultant32452 9y ago
      Again, if people were really interested in this then protectionist economic policy would be a major topic in every election. It's worth noting that Barak Obama, in the primaries, campaigned on a platform of renegotiating NAFTA to not fuck over American workers so hard. Then, after the primaries, that topic vanished and once elected he tried to pass TPP which would've been just as bad for American workers as NAFTA. Then of course Trump campaigned on the same issue, but he's Trump and there's not really anything more to say about that.