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I agree with you that tech giants promoting basic income are probably only doing that as an easy and attractive answer to - what will happen to all the jobs? H

by taysic 9y ago

I agree with you that tech giants promoting basic income are probably only doing that as an easy and attractive answer to - what will happen to all the jobs? However, I really don't think UBI is the answer. I don't understand where the money will come from/who will do the leftover work. I think we should continue to cultivate an innovative society and new types of jobs - more appealing I think - will be created.

Mz 9y ago
People that rich are used to solving certain things by whipping out their checkbook (so to speak). It may be superficially well meaning, but, no, I don't think UBI actually works. If they manage to get a UBI instituted, I think that is a case of the road to hell is paved with good intentions. But, the odds seem pretty long against it being instituted in this country at all. So, that makes me feel it is mere posturing. I do a lot of "light one candle rather than curse the dark" type projects. I try to promote things that already exist (like gig work) that I think work. I do my best to get such info into the hands of people who seem hardest hit by the societal growing pains we are witnessing. It can be hard to measure the results of such efforts and it can be outright impossible to prove to others that it makes a difference. But, I have had experiences* that convince me that it does make a difference, so I persist. * http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2016/08/for-just-few-dollars-more.html http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2016/08/for-just-few...
ThomPete 9y ago
But what are you basing that belief on? Thats what I would like to know. Unless you don't think computers will be able to do most of the things that create fundamental value in society. Of course you can imagine all sorts of services on top (prostitution, games etc) but the idea of the job market as something that we just keep creating new jobs for is simply not backed by reality. What fundamentally new jobs have we really seen the last 100 years besides computer engineer and how many people does that industry actually occupy. As it turns out not a lot. Everything else is just a more refined version of things that already existed in some form or another and rapidly being replaced by technology.
- taysic 9y ago
  > But what are you basing that belief on? Which part of it? Not too many generations ago, many people lived entirely off the land. A large portion of people's "jobs" were displaced from agriculture and yet over time new jobs keep getting created. There are jobs that no one had even thought of that are now providing for the livelihood of many people. Yes I believe there will also be new things that people want and new ways that other want to help them get it that will keep fueling the economy. There are things that are inaccessible to many people now that will become more everyday and "middle class". > Unless you don't think computers will be able to do most of the things that create fundamental value in society. No not at all. Of course I think automation can keep getting better but there are plenty of jobs that I don't see computers doing anywhere in the near term - building a house, paving a street, cooking food, being a nurse, being a garbage man, etc etc. > What fundamentally new jobs have we really seen the last 100 years besides computer engineer... Um seriously? I know people who literally are "social media managers". I know people who sell eBooks for a living or do Youtube. I know folks who attempt to at least live off the music they make. These are just "new" jobs that no one could have envisioned before. But think of all the greater demand there could be existing jobs. I have a friend in Fiji and apparently there nearly everyone has a housekeeper, even "middle class" people. There is a demand for stuff like that even in America - people keep pushing toward whatever improves their standard of living as long as they can afford it. Technology is growing fast but its far from the only thing desired by people.
  - ThomPete 9y ago
    Which part of it? Not too many generations ago, many people lived entirely off the land. A large portion of people's "jobs" were displaced from agriculture and yet over time new jobs keep getting created. There are jobs that no one had even thought of that are now providing for the livelihood of many people. New jobs keeps getting created simply because the markets have grown through population growth and globalization. If you look in the US out of all the new jobs created since 2009 95% of them are temp jobs not structural jobs. Temp jobs means that the job is being perceived as less valuable (no healthcare) than ex a structurally solid job. The actual market value of most jobs is diminishing. At the same time cost of living is going up up up. The jobs no one have thought of are literally a drop in the ocean. They pay a few people very well while 90% don't make a dime on them. And they are only "new jobs" in the sense that they are about a new medium or technology. But fundamentally nothing new about them. The problem with most jobs is that they don't actually require the whole human only a small part of the humans abilities. Unless you don't think technology can replace that function I have a hard time seeing where you get your view that it's not an actual problem from. Technology allow you to be competitive which mean you need to keep investing in technology to be competitive. Yet income is actually declining and cost is going up. Here is an interesting graph showing price change: https://twitter.com/hnshah/status/909557796873662464/photo/1 https://twitter.com/hnshah/status/909557796873662464/photo/1 How is that an illustration of things becoming more accessible? Unless of course you mean that TV series covers people fundamental needs. No not at all. Of course I think automation can keep getting better but there are plenty of jobs that I don't see computers doing anywhere in the near term - building a house, paving a street, cooking food, being a nurse, being a garbage man, etc etc. Yet there are already technologies doing that today. This will only increase over time. Um seriously? I know people who literally are "social media managers" Social media manager are just marketing people in another medium nothing new there. Selling ebooks is just selling books in another media. these aren't actually new types of jobs and it's a very very very small fraction of society who actually make a living from these. You can't live on likes. The benefits of technology is desired by people and thats what matters here.

by taysic 9y ago

Mz 9y ago

People that rich are used to solving certain things by whipping out their checkbook (so to speak). It may be superficially well meaning, but, no, I don't think UBI actually works. If they manage to get a UBI instituted, I think that is a case of the road to hell is paved with good intentions. But, the odds seem pretty long against it being instituted in this country at all. So, that makes me feel it is mere posturing. I do a lot of "light one candle rather than curse the dark" type projects. I try to promote things that already exist (like gig work) that I think work. I do my best to get such info into the hands of people who seem hardest hit by the societal growing pains we are witnessing. It can be hard to measure the results of such efforts and it can be outright impossible to prove to others that it makes a difference. But, I have had experiences* that convince me that it does make a difference, so I persist. * http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2016/08/for-just-few-dollars-more.html http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2016/08/for-just-few...

ThomPete 9y ago

But what are you basing that belief on? Thats what I would like to know. Unless you don't think computers will be able to do most of the things that create fundamental value in society. Of course you can imagine all sorts of services on top (prostitution, games etc) but the idea of the job market as something that we just keep creating new jobs for is simply not backed by reality. What fundamentally new jobs have we really seen the last 100 years besides computer engineer and how many people does that industry actually occupy. As it turns out not a lot. Everything else is just a more refined version of things that already existed in some form or another and rapidly being replaced by technology.

taysic 9y ago
> But what are you basing that belief on? Which part of it? Not too many generations ago, many people lived entirely off the land. A large portion of people's "jobs" were displaced from agriculture and yet over time new jobs keep getting created. There are jobs that no one had even thought of that are now providing for the livelihood of many people. Yes I believe there will also be new things that people want and new ways that other want to help them get it that will keep fueling the economy. There are things that are inaccessible to many people now that will become more everyday and "middle class". > Unless you don't think computers will be able to do most of the things that create fundamental value in society. No not at all. Of course I think automation can keep getting better but there are plenty of jobs that I don't see computers doing anywhere in the near term - building a house, paving a street, cooking food, being a nurse, being a garbage man, etc etc. > What fundamentally new jobs have we really seen the last 100 years besides computer engineer... Um seriously? I know people who literally are "social media managers". I know people who sell eBooks for a living or do Youtube. I know folks who attempt to at least live off the music they make. These are just "new" jobs that no one could have envisioned before. But think of all the greater demand there could be existing jobs. I have a friend in Fiji and apparently there nearly everyone has a housekeeper, even "middle class" people. There is a demand for stuff like that even in America - people keep pushing toward whatever improves their standard of living as long as they can afford it. Technology is growing fast but its far from the only thing desired by people.
- ThomPete 9y ago
  Which part of it? Not too many generations ago, many people lived entirely off the land. A large portion of people's "jobs" were displaced from agriculture and yet over time new jobs keep getting created. There are jobs that no one had even thought of that are now providing for the livelihood of many people. New jobs keeps getting created simply because the markets have grown through population growth and globalization. If you look in the US out of all the new jobs created since 2009 95% of them are temp jobs not structural jobs. Temp jobs means that the job is being perceived as less valuable (no healthcare) than ex a structurally solid job. The actual market value of most jobs is diminishing. At the same time cost of living is going up up up. The jobs no one have thought of are literally a drop in the ocean. They pay a few people very well while 90% don't make a dime on them. And they are only "new jobs" in the sense that they are about a new medium or technology. But fundamentally nothing new about them. The problem with most jobs is that they don't actually require the whole human only a small part of the humans abilities. Unless you don't think technology can replace that function I have a hard time seeing where you get your view that it's not an actual problem from. Technology allow you to be competitive which mean you need to keep investing in technology to be competitive. Yet income is actually declining and cost is going up. Here is an interesting graph showing price change: https://twitter.com/hnshah/status/909557796873662464/photo/1 https://twitter.com/hnshah/status/909557796873662464/photo/1 How is that an illustration of things becoming more accessible? Unless of course you mean that TV series covers people fundamental needs. No not at all. Of course I think automation can keep getting better but there are plenty of jobs that I don't see computers doing anywhere in the near term - building a house, paving a street, cooking food, being a nurse, being a garbage man, etc etc. Yet there are already technologies doing that today. This will only increase over time. Um seriously? I know people who literally are "social media managers" Social media manager are just marketing people in another medium nothing new there. Selling ebooks is just selling books in another media. these aren't actually new types of jobs and it's a very very very small fraction of society who actually make a living from these. You can't live on likes. The benefits of technology is desired by people and thats what matters here.