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You are missing the point. List one other 'real world' item - aside from software - where you can buy it, but it restricts you from either sharing it with some

You are missing the point. List one other 'real world' item - aside from software - where you can buy it, but it restricts you from either sharing it with someone else or lending to them, or giving to them after you are done. If you buy a bike, bicycle, kitchen utensils, TV, ps3, cellphone, etc. All of the above you can do as you please with how you want - while you own it - and dispose of it as you please. Software is the only thing, I can think of, that you can't do that. I know there are technical issues with that, but when you put into that context, it really raises an interesting question about the evolution of software and the licensing model - for consumers.

tptacek 16y ago
No, you're missing the point. For the second time now, you've changed the terms of the discussion. First, it was to say that some of the vendors you've worked with have made their licensing enforcement so painful that it embarassed you. That's not what happened in this post. Now, it's to say that some vendors won't let sell or pass on software when you're done with it. But this person is doing literally the opposite of that. I don't concede the validity of your argument to begin with (people should be able to charge whatever they want for things they build, and you have no intrinsic right to assign any other cost to it), but I don't have to hash it out with you, because it's irrelevant.
dman 16y ago
How about your insurance policy, your rental apartment , your gun (in many countries) , your airline ticket , tickets bought from ticketmaster.com ...
- marcamillion 16y ago
  Your insurance policy is not a good. It's a service. Rental apartment - from what perspective? The renter or owner? Government regulations don't count. I meant from the vendor's perspective. A gun, you definitely can do anything you want with a gun. Hence the problem of violent crimes in many countries and the thriving 'arms trafficking' trade. Your airline ticket, again...this is a service. If you a buy a plane, you can fly wherever you want (within reason) and the plane can fly. An event, hence a ticket to an event, is a service.
  - tptacek 16y ago
    There's plenty of software you can buy and treat like a "good" and not a "service". But your point is that vendors should not be allowed to sell software as a service. Presumably, people shouldn't be allowed to rent cars either? I don't see how you ever get around the fact that people should be able to charge whatever they want for what they build. Yes, they should be transparent about it. But who are you to say "since your bits are running on my computer, and my computer can save them and replay them over and over again, you have no right to restrict how I use them"?
    - marcamillion 16y ago
      This is where I think many entrepreneurs get their stuff mixed up. I am he who giveth thee the ability to earneth a living whilst doeth what thee doeth. I am a paying customer. A migration of all people like me, and you will have to find a job doing something else. That being said, I don't think you should be listen to EVERYTHING every customer has ever said...but blatant disregard to my opinions with the statement: "But who are you to say 'since your bits are running on my computer, and my computer can save them and replay them over and over again, you have no right to restrict how I use them?'" Suppose, when you bought your computer wit Windows and wanted to install your favorite version of Linux on it, you were restricted from doing so. Many people would cry foul. It's the same thing, it's just that we have been cultured into believing that when we 'buy' something, we should be told how to use it. Enough is enough!
  - dman 16y ago
    The renter - you rented the apartment, it would not cost the landlord anything extra if you sublet it, yet many places have restrictions on subletting. I am targetting your notion that if it doesnt cost the vendor anything extra you can do whatever you want. Both in case of the airline ticket and a concert ticket I think the situation is very similar to running software on multiple machine. There is a fixed cost to production, yet there are terms outlining how the user can use the product.
TGJ 16y ago
When you buy software, you are not just buying code. You are asking another person to make a single computer do a particular task. You are buying an add-on for your computer. That computer now has an increased benefit for your business but it is only performed by that one computer. If you feel that you need more computers to do a particular task, then you buy more software. If you think that the situation should change, ask the provider how much it would cost to provide your business with the service and not a single computer.
anthonyb 16y ago
You're the one missing the point - you're not being restricted. You can run your program on any (single) computer that you want, and "dispose of it how you please". If you wanted to ride 3 bikes at once, you'd have to buy 3 bikes - the bike company won't give you an extra two for free. You can have all the hissy fits you want, and it is (sort of) an artifical limit, but these are the restrictions that you accepted when you chose to buy the software. If you don't like it, go open source.
- what 16y ago
  You also can't buy a bike and have 3 people ride it once.
  - Groxx 16y ago
    But you can buy a bike and use it to get somewhere and back, and not need to buy a second one for the return journey just because you started at a different location.
patrickk 16y ago
A cellphone might be a bad example - Apple iPhone is great (once jailbroken). Point taken nonetheless though.

tptacek 16y ago

No, you're missing the point. For the second time now, you've changed the terms of the discussion. First, it was to say that some of the vendors you've worked with have made their licensing enforcement so painful that it embarassed you. That's not what happened in this post. Now, it's to say that some vendors won't let sell or pass on software when you're done with it. But this person is doing literally the opposite of that. I don't concede the validity of your argument to begin with (people should be able to charge whatever they want for things they build, and you have no intrinsic right to assign any other cost to it), but I don't have to hash it out with you, because it's irrelevant.

dman 16y ago

How about your insurance policy, your rental apartment , your gun (in many countries) , your airline ticket , tickets bought from ticketmaster.com ...

marcamillion 16y ago
Your insurance policy is not a good. It's a service. Rental apartment - from what perspective? The renter or owner? Government regulations don't count. I meant from the vendor's perspective. A gun, you definitely can do anything you want with a gun. Hence the problem of violent crimes in many countries and the thriving 'arms trafficking' trade. Your airline ticket, again...this is a service. If you a buy a plane, you can fly wherever you want (within reason) and the plane can fly. An event, hence a ticket to an event, is a service.
- tptacek 16y ago
  There's plenty of software you can buy and treat like a "good" and not a "service". But your point is that vendors should not be allowed to sell software as a service. Presumably, people shouldn't be allowed to rent cars either? I don't see how you ever get around the fact that people should be able to charge whatever they want for what they build. Yes, they should be transparent about it. But who are you to say "since your bits are running on my computer, and my computer can save them and replay them over and over again, you have no right to restrict how I use them"?
  - marcamillion 16y ago
    This is where I think many entrepreneurs get their stuff mixed up. I am he who giveth thee the ability to earneth a living whilst doeth what thee doeth. I am a paying customer. A migration of all people like me, and you will have to find a job doing something else. That being said, I don't think you should be listen to EVERYTHING every customer has ever said...but blatant disregard to my opinions with the statement: "But who are you to say 'since your bits are running on my computer, and my computer can save them and replay them over and over again, you have no right to restrict how I use them?'" Suppose, when you bought your computer wit Windows and wanted to install your favorite version of Linux on it, you were restricted from doing so. Many people would cry foul. It's the same thing, it's just that we have been cultured into believing that when we 'buy' something, we should be told how to use it. Enough is enough!
- dman 16y ago
  The renter - you rented the apartment, it would not cost the landlord anything extra if you sublet it, yet many places have restrictions on subletting. I am targetting your notion that if it doesnt cost the vendor anything extra you can do whatever you want. Both in case of the airline ticket and a concert ticket I think the situation is very similar to running software on multiple machine. There is a fixed cost to production, yet there are terms outlining how the user can use the product.

TGJ 16y ago

When you buy software, you are not just buying code. You are asking another person to make a single computer do a particular task. You are buying an add-on for your computer. That computer now has an increased benefit for your business but it is only performed by that one computer. If you feel that you need more computers to do a particular task, then you buy more software. If you think that the situation should change, ask the provider how much it would cost to provide your business with the service and not a single computer.

anthonyb 16y ago

You're the one missing the point - you're not being restricted. You can run your program on any (single) computer that you want, and "dispose of it how you please". If you wanted to ride 3 bikes at once, you'd have to buy 3 bikes - the bike company won't give you an extra two for free. You can have all the hissy fits you want, and it is (sort of) an artifical limit, but these are the restrictions that you accepted when you chose to buy the software. If you don't like it, go open source.

what 16y ago
You also can't buy a bike and have 3 people ride it once.
- Groxx 16y ago
  But you can buy a bike and use it to get somewhere and back, and not need to buy a second one for the return journey just because you started at a different location.

patrickk 16y ago

A cellphone might be a bad example - Apple iPhone is great (once jailbroken). Point taken nonetheless though.