9 ms·

The whole point about Basic Income (at least the unconditional ly one) is that there are not going to be any jobs (or very few and only for highly talented peop

by Mz 9y ago

The whole point about Basic Income (at least the unconditional ly one) is that there are not going to be any jobs (or very few and only for highly talented people). If there are no jobs, it will be because we designed it that way, not because it was inevitable. Tech giants proposing basic income as the solution to their lazy lack of desire to figure out how to better distribute work tell glowing stories of how lovely it will be for low paid workers to get this extra money. They never actually explore the scenario they are actually proposing that all you get is $10k-$20k and you have little or no hope of getting a job at all ever again. That would be a dystopian nightmare and I think it is likely to end in bloody revolution. Lots of hopeless people with nothing but time on their hands who are being completely fucked over by the system with no way out of this black hole but just enough money to keep eating well, even if they are living in a tent, sounds like a recipe for creating a well trained guerrilla army.

ThomPete 9y ago
I wish it was that simple. Technology isn't inevitable but to the extent that we wan't to reap the benefits of it is. In other word, we aren't designing anything other than our own replacements. With regards to how SV tries to paint it thats a different discussion and have nothing to do with whether it will happen or not. It doesn't have to be dystopian (ex. Post scarcity society) but until we get there it's going to be worse not better for a lot of people. But I would challenge you to come up with an alternative that by and large at least compete with the reliance on technology. The problem is that no specific part of the whole system is responsible and everyone in the system is more or less acting rationally. So I fundamentally disagree it's not inevitable (with the above context considered)
- Mz 9y ago
  But I would challenge you to come up with an alternative Actually, I have. I was homeless for nearly six years until earlier this month. I am medically handicapped and can't work a regular job. I was a homemaker for a lot of years, I had a corporate job for a few years and I currently do freelance writing, resume editing and I blog, which gets me a little money via ads, tips and Patreon. UBI will solve nothing as long as we do not have universal basic health care and affordable housing. If we establish universal basic health care and create sufficient affordable housing, then the last piece of the puzzle is redistributing work. We did this once before under very similar circumstances where automation was "taking our jobs." It was called The Industrial Revolution. It gave birth to the 40 hour work week, overtime pay and unions. If work is structured properly and you can get a cheap SRO or similar somewhere and not have to worry about medical bills, you can cover your basic living expenses working part time. If it is well structured where you work as little or as much as you want, then people who are unambitious hedonists or who have personal burdens, like chronic health issues, can just get by without it being a dystopian horrifying black hole that seems inescapable. Folks with more energy and/or more ambition can work harder and do more with their lives. I have written a number of pieces laying out the details. Some are listed on this page of my old blog: http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/p/ir2.html http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/p/ir2.html But I don't imagine you are actually interested. That "challenge" was most likely intended to mean "Shut up. It isn't like you have a solution."
  - ThomPete 9y ago
    You are assuming an awful lot of things about me. Why would I challenge you if I wasn't intersted in what you had to say? You completely ignore that there is no need to structure work if I don't have to hire people to produce or develop my products. This is the whole point and why I believe you are fundamentally looking at this wrong. The industrial revolution replaced physical work, this revolution is replacing intellectual work. You are betting on some political/ideological/moral change in people, not actually addressing the points I was making.
    - Mz 9y ago
      And, yet, your out of hand dismissal fits very well with my assumption that you aren't actually interested in hearing a solution other than UBI. I am not betting on a political, ideological or moral change. Whether we establish a UBI or go with something akin to my above proposals, these are equally political solutions. Neither will happen without a great many people working to make it happen. The only question is what kind of future do we want? I think UBI makes no sense and will not work. Universal basic health care would be vastly easier to implement, if only because it has already be done in multiple other countries, so we have models to borrow from. Yet, people think that is a bridge too far and will not happen. So, to me, the good news is that UBI is unlikely to happen and Gig Work is already on the rise, such as Uber, writing services and delivery services. The challenge here is just getting the word out that such services need to be a win-win scenario for both company and workers. I am already living this reality. Gig Work has been an ideal solution in the face of a medical situation that makes a normal job not work for me. So, I know firsthand that Gig Work can be a terrific option for the worker if it isn't designed to screw over the little guy. That can totally coexist alongside factories with very few workers. The rise of the machines does not have to be a terrible thing for humanity. The Industrial Revolution raised standards of living and quality of life across the board. There is no reason The Second Industrial Revolution cannot do the same. But we do need to set that as a goal and work towards it. My only real concern is that, currently, some very rich and powerful people do not see the 99 percent as actual human beings. They see them as sheeple. And the solutions that grow out of such contempt tend to be self fulfilling prophesies that force powerless people into the narrative imposed on them from high.
taysic 9y ago
I agree with you that tech giants promoting basic income are probably only doing that as an easy and attractive answer to - what will happen to all the jobs? However, I really don't think UBI is the answer. I don't understand where the money will come from/who will do the leftover work. I think we should continue to cultivate an innovative society and new types of jobs - more appealing I think - will be created.
- Mz 9y ago
  People that rich are used to solving certain things by whipping out their checkbook (so to speak). It may be superficially well meaning, but, no, I don't think UBI actually works. If they manage to get a UBI instituted, I think that is a case of the road to hell is paved with good intentions. But, the odds seem pretty long against it being instituted in this country at all. So, that makes me feel it is mere posturing. I do a lot of "light one candle rather than curse the dark" type projects. I try to promote things that already exist (like gig work) that I think work. I do my best to get such info into the hands of people who seem hardest hit by the societal growing pains we are witnessing. It can be hard to measure the results of such efforts and it can be outright impossible to prove to others that it makes a difference. But, I have had experiences* that convince me that it does make a difference, so I persist. * http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2016/08/for-just-few-dollars-more.html http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2016/08/for-just-few...
- ThomPete 9y ago
  But what are you basing that belief on? Thats what I would like to know. Unless you don't think computers will be able to do most of the things that create fundamental value in society. Of course you can imagine all sorts of services on top (prostitution, games etc) but the idea of the job market as something that we just keep creating new jobs for is simply not backed by reality. What fundamentally new jobs have we really seen the last 100 years besides computer engineer and how many people does that industry actually occupy. As it turns out not a lot. Everything else is just a more refined version of things that already existed in some form or another and rapidly being replaced by technology.
  - 9y ago

by Mz 9y ago

ThomPete 9y ago

I wish it was that simple. Technology isn't inevitable but to the extent that we wan't to reap the benefits of it is. In other word, we aren't designing anything other than our own replacements. With regards to how SV tries to paint it thats a different discussion and have nothing to do with whether it will happen or not. It doesn't have to be dystopian (ex. Post scarcity society) but until we get there it's going to be worse not better for a lot of people. But I would challenge you to come up with an alternative that by and large at least compete with the reliance on technology. The problem is that no specific part of the whole system is responsible and everyone in the system is more or less acting rationally. So I fundamentally disagree it's not inevitable (with the above context considered)

Mz 9y ago
But I would challenge you to come up with an alternative Actually, I have. I was homeless for nearly six years until earlier this month. I am medically handicapped and can't work a regular job. I was a homemaker for a lot of years, I had a corporate job for a few years and I currently do freelance writing, resume editing and I blog, which gets me a little money via ads, tips and Patreon. UBI will solve nothing as long as we do not have universal basic health care and affordable housing. If we establish universal basic health care and create sufficient affordable housing, then the last piece of the puzzle is redistributing work. We did this once before under very similar circumstances where automation was "taking our jobs." It was called The Industrial Revolution. It gave birth to the 40 hour work week, overtime pay and unions. If work is structured properly and you can get a cheap SRO or similar somewhere and not have to worry about medical bills, you can cover your basic living expenses working part time. If it is well structured where you work as little or as much as you want, then people who are unambitious hedonists or who have personal burdens, like chronic health issues, can just get by without it being a dystopian horrifying black hole that seems inescapable. Folks with more energy and/or more ambition can work harder and do more with their lives. I have written a number of pieces laying out the details. Some are listed on this page of my old blog: http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/p/ir2.html http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/p/ir2.html But I don't imagine you are actually interested. That "challenge" was most likely intended to mean "Shut up. It isn't like you have a solution."
- ThomPete 9y ago
  You are assuming an awful lot of things about me. Why would I challenge you if I wasn't intersted in what you had to say? You completely ignore that there is no need to structure work if I don't have to hire people to produce or develop my products. This is the whole point and why I believe you are fundamentally looking at this wrong. The industrial revolution replaced physical work, this revolution is replacing intellectual work. You are betting on some political/ideological/moral change in people, not actually addressing the points I was making.
  - Mz 9y ago
    And, yet, your out of hand dismissal fits very well with my assumption that you aren't actually interested in hearing a solution other than UBI. I am not betting on a political, ideological or moral change. Whether we establish a UBI or go with something akin to my above proposals, these are equally political solutions. Neither will happen without a great many people working to make it happen. The only question is what kind of future do we want? I think UBI makes no sense and will not work. Universal basic health care would be vastly easier to implement, if only because it has already be done in multiple other countries, so we have models to borrow from. Yet, people think that is a bridge too far and will not happen. So, to me, the good news is that UBI is unlikely to happen and Gig Work is already on the rise, such as Uber, writing services and delivery services. The challenge here is just getting the word out that such services need to be a win-win scenario for both company and workers. I am already living this reality. Gig Work has been an ideal solution in the face of a medical situation that makes a normal job not work for me. So, I know firsthand that Gig Work can be a terrific option for the worker if it isn't designed to screw over the little guy. That can totally coexist alongside factories with very few workers. The rise of the machines does not have to be a terrible thing for humanity. The Industrial Revolution raised standards of living and quality of life across the board. There is no reason The Second Industrial Revolution cannot do the same. But we do need to set that as a goal and work towards it. My only real concern is that, currently, some very rich and powerful people do not see the 99 percent as actual human beings. They see them as sheeple. And the solutions that grow out of such contempt tend to be self fulfilling prophesies that force powerless people into the narrative imposed on them from high.

taysic 9y ago

I agree with you that tech giants promoting basic income are probably only doing that as an easy and attractive answer to - what will happen to all the jobs? However, I really don't think UBI is the answer. I don't understand where the money will come from/who will do the leftover work. I think we should continue to cultivate an innovative society and new types of jobs - more appealing I think - will be created.

Mz 9y ago
People that rich are used to solving certain things by whipping out their checkbook (so to speak). It may be superficially well meaning, but, no, I don't think UBI actually works. If they manage to get a UBI instituted, I think that is a case of the road to hell is paved with good intentions. But, the odds seem pretty long against it being instituted in this country at all. So, that makes me feel it is mere posturing. I do a lot of "light one candle rather than curse the dark" type projects. I try to promote things that already exist (like gig work) that I think work. I do my best to get such info into the hands of people who seem hardest hit by the societal growing pains we are witnessing. It can be hard to measure the results of such efforts and it can be outright impossible to prove to others that it makes a difference. But, I have had experiences* that convince me that it does make a difference, so I persist. * http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2016/08/for-just-few-dollars-more.html http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2016/08/for-just-few...
ThomPete 9y ago
But what are you basing that belief on? Thats what I would like to know. Unless you don't think computers will be able to do most of the things that create fundamental value in society. Of course you can imagine all sorts of services on top (prostitution, games etc) but the idea of the job market as something that we just keep creating new jobs for is simply not backed by reality. What fundamentally new jobs have we really seen the last 100 years besides computer engineer and how many people does that industry actually occupy. As it turns out not a lot. Everything else is just a more refined version of things that already existed in some form or another and rapidly being replaced by technology.
- 9y ago