4 ms·

Oh yeah, so you do have a choice if you want to live in a cave.

by brango 9y ago

dmoy 9y ago
What is a reasonable alternative to credit agencies? Most countries I know use similar (or sometimes the same, like the UK) agencies, though sometimes with a caveat that they only log defaults or other stuff you mess up.
- yebyen 9y ago
  The alternative is the two other credit agencies that haven't (as far as we know) given up all of our personal information to hackers, and who haven't responded to the news of the breach by linking some of their customers to a parody/phishing site that was nearly indistinguishable from their own (very bad) breach response website. There is no way out of this (the cat is out of the bag) but we can go on about our lives without Equifax. They need to be unplugged.
  - dmoy 9y ago
    Ok sure but all of your objections above (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15303289 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15303289) can be applied to the other two agencies as well. They collect all your info also. I'm personally not super optimistic about their security.
    - yebyen 9y ago
      Me either! That's absolutely a valid point. And I am terrified that this breach will ultimately result in the end of the credit system as we know it, but right now taking such a position is still scare-mongering. (Very reasonable scare mongering, mind you, but maybe cart before the horse.) We can't just unplug all three agencies and shut down the credit industry, but why can't we shut down Equifax? Take the drivers' license and the car keys away from the drunk driver. They are the ones that let the cat out of the bag, they should no longer be allowed to collect our personal information. There is no reasonable argument that can be made that Equifax in particular, should be allowed to go on making money off of our personal data with the negligent failure that they have created for us and admitted to, after what all has happened. Edit: When Sonny Vleisides plead guilty to Felony Mail Fraud in 2007, he was forbidden to engage in loan programs, gambling or gaming activities, telemarketing activities, investment programs or any other business involving the solicitation of funds. He went on to found the company called Butterfly Labs in 2010, a company that took pre-orders for Bitcoin mining equipment (in many cases soliciting funds for hardware that didn't exist, until it did). Many people argued that this model was a direct violation of the terms of his supervised release. He stood in front of a judge in 2014 that said there was a "strong smell" of fraud with respect to his company. Equifax it seems gets to skip the whole "plead guilty" thing and just announced their negligent failure directly to the world. When does Equifax get their 14 months in jail followed by a supervised release? Never, apparently, they just go on about their business and no charges are filed. It's absolutely ridiculous in my humble opinion. Maybe I'm the one who is being unreasonable, expecting that the wheels of justice can turn more rapidly than one can reasonably expect. It's not exactly parallel, I'm stretching to draw parallels obviously, but there should be some parallels in the arena of legal action here. Has anyone argued that Equifax wasn't negligent in the circumstances leading up to the breach? What about in their actions since then? How much further does it have to go before we can get the FTC or US Marshals involved and shut the place down?
- dredmorbius 9y ago
  "In at least 40 other countries — including Belgium, France, Germany, Italy and Spain — credit reporting can be done by a public credit registry. It is usually operated by a central bank that already oversees the financial institutions that feed information into the reports. These reports tend to be more accurate because the operators have a legal right to demand data from banks as well as a mandate to ensure it’s correct and that errors are fixed. Data on late payments and defaults are erased once a consumer has settled up." From the article.
  - dmoy 9y ago
    Right but surely a public credit registry would have the same risk of being hacked, no? At least in the US, we have government run data get hacked on a routine basis. That seemed to be G(G?)P's concern. At the end of the day, whether it's a private or public credit agency, they're still collecting all your data whether you want them to or not (modulo going full Thoreau and removing yourself from the economy), and still could get hacked and have all that stolen.
    - scott_s 9y ago
      > Right but surely a public credit registry would have the same risk of being hacked, no? No, I disagree. A public agency would have the same value as a target. But its incentives would be better aligned (no profit motive), which could result in better practices and less actual risk.

Oh yeah, so you do have a choice if you want to live in a cave.

by brango 9y ago

Oh yeah, so you do have a choice if you want to live in a cave.

dmoy 9y ago

What is a reasonable alternative to credit agencies? Most countries I know use similar (or sometimes the same, like the UK) agencies, though sometimes with a caveat that they only log defaults or other stuff you mess up.

yebyen 9y ago
The alternative is the two other credit agencies that haven't (as far as we know) given up all of our personal information to hackers, and who haven't responded to the news of the breach by linking some of their customers to a parody/phishing site that was nearly indistinguishable from their own (very bad) breach response website. There is no way out of this (the cat is out of the bag) but we can go on about our lives without Equifax. They need to be unplugged.
- dmoy 9y ago
  Ok sure but all of your objections above (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15303289 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15303289) can be applied to the other two agencies as well. They collect all your info also. I'm personally not super optimistic about their security.
  - yebyen 9y ago
    Me either! That's absolutely a valid point. And I am terrified that this breach will ultimately result in the end of the credit system as we know it, but right now taking such a position is still scare-mongering. (Very reasonable scare mongering, mind you, but maybe cart before the horse.) We can't just unplug all three agencies and shut down the credit industry, but why can't we shut down Equifax? Take the drivers' license and the car keys away from the drunk driver. They are the ones that let the cat out of the bag, they should no longer be allowed to collect our personal information. There is no reasonable argument that can be made that Equifax in particular, should be allowed to go on making money off of our personal data with the negligent failure that they have created for us and admitted to, after what all has happened. Edit: When Sonny Vleisides plead guilty to Felony Mail Fraud in 2007, he was forbidden to engage in loan programs, gambling or gaming activities, telemarketing activities, investment programs or any other business involving the solicitation of funds. He went on to found the company called Butterfly Labs in 2010, a company that took pre-orders for Bitcoin mining equipment (in many cases soliciting funds for hardware that didn't exist, until it did). Many people argued that this model was a direct violation of the terms of his supervised release. He stood in front of a judge in 2014 that said there was a "strong smell" of fraud with respect to his company. Equifax it seems gets to skip the whole "plead guilty" thing and just announced their negligent failure directly to the world. When does Equifax get their 14 months in jail followed by a supervised release? Never, apparently, they just go on about their business and no charges are filed. It's absolutely ridiculous in my humble opinion. Maybe I'm the one who is being unreasonable, expecting that the wheels of justice can turn more rapidly than one can reasonably expect. It's not exactly parallel, I'm stretching to draw parallels obviously, but there should be some parallels in the arena of legal action here. Has anyone argued that Equifax wasn't negligent in the circumstances leading up to the breach? What about in their actions since then? How much further does it have to go before we can get the FTC or US Marshals involved and shut the place down?
dredmorbius 9y ago
"In at least 40 other countries — including Belgium, France, Germany, Italy and Spain — credit reporting can be done by a public credit registry. It is usually operated by a central bank that already oversees the financial institutions that feed information into the reports. These reports tend to be more accurate because the operators have a legal right to demand data from banks as well as a mandate to ensure it’s correct and that errors are fixed. Data on late payments and defaults are erased once a consumer has settled up." From the article.
- dmoy 9y ago
  Right but surely a public credit registry would have the same risk of being hacked, no? At least in the US, we have government run data get hacked on a routine basis. That seemed to be G(G?)P's concern. At the end of the day, whether it's a private or public credit agency, they're still collecting all your data whether you want them to or not (modulo going full Thoreau and removing yourself from the economy), and still could get hacked and have all that stolen.
  - scott_s 9y ago
    > Right but surely a public credit registry would have the same risk of being hacked, no? No, I disagree. A public agency would have the same value as a target. But its incentives would be better aligned (no profit motive), which could result in better practices and less actual risk.