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Your argument isn't valid because without taxation there would be no public roads to trespass on. At least not federally. And there are other solutions: - Tax

by throwaway2016a 9y ago

Your argument isn't valid because without taxation there would be no public roads to trespass on. At least not federally. And there are other solutions: - Tax property owners to pay for roads near their buildings - Toll roads - Private ways (actually very common in housing developments and usually work even better than public ones because the landlord / homeowners association is incentivized to keep them well taken care of to keep people from moving out) - Local income tax (something most libertarian's aren't against because living in a locale is a choice that is easier to change than, say, what country you are a citizen of) - etc An interesting mental trap people fall into is thinking that because currently something is paid for one way that taking away that source of income will mean it won't be paid for. The market has a way of working things out.

pavel_lishin 9y ago
> Your argument isn't valid because without taxation there would be no public roads to trespass on. At least not federally. It's perfectly valid if I'm having the argument with someone who wants to pay zero taxes, but is fine using the roads currently in place. Now, if they're saving up to buy land in Montana and live off the grid - fine, they're trying to work their way out of a circumstance they didn't ask to be placed in. But if someone's an armchair libertarian who hypocritically feeds off the teat they claim to loathe, then I find their argument a bit harder to swallow.
- throwaway2016a 9y ago
  > It's perfectly valid if I'm having the argument with someone who wants to pay zero taxes, but is fine using the roads currently in place. I would find it hard to find that person even if I went to a gathering of Libertarians. Being anti-income tax is different than being anti-tax. Many Libertarian's are OK with (in one form or another): - Luxury sales and use tax (not on necessities like food and basic clothing) - Toll roads - Property tax - Local income tax With property tax being a little less common (although I am personally OK with it) because a lot of people will argue that if you have to pay taxes on it you don't really own it. Then again... I take that back... I WOULD be able to find that person at a gathering of libertarians but my personal experience is that he would be in the minority. Edit: to add to the lats sentence, perhaps a very loud vocal minority.
  - featherverse 9y ago
    You don't own the land you own, even if you bought it. You are paying the zombie tax. Which is to say the population is growing too fast, there isn't enough land, and if there weren't regulations humans would kill you and steal your land and eat your corpse because humans are animals. So you pay a tax, that tax supports a system we call "society", which kills or controls the masses who would otherwise murder you and take everything you think you own. I call it the zombie tax because the best way to imagine the alternative would be the unstoppable hordes of zombies we see in hollywood films.
    - throwaway2016a 9y ago
      Note: I said I personally agree with property tax. I think it is vital to pay for the roads and other critical services homeowners get from the local municipality. I didn't take a stance on whether or not you actual own your real-estate.
    - pavel_lishin 9y ago
      If we accept the Zombie Tax premise, then we don't own anything.
      - featherverse 9y ago
        Well if you really want to get into the philosophy of this, it is important to first acknowledge that concepts like "society", or "property" are completely fictional, made-up ideas, that people simply invented. It's not that different from kids playing pretend in their parent's basement, inventing any rules they want for their game. They can do whatever they want, because there isn't anyone else around to tell them differently. A lot, I mean a _lot_ of people do not often think about this fact, they sort of assume that these concepts were handed down by some impossible deity (god is not real.) But the truth is they emerged from intelligent self-aware people who for various reasons simply decided that these things should exist. So with that in mind, if property is make-believe, how can you "own" something? What precisely is ownership? Just more make-believe, using different words. If it exists at all, it's a social contract, and when it's you versus everyone else, hate to break it to you but it means nothing.

pavel_lishin 9y ago

> Your argument isn't valid because without taxation there would be no public roads to trespass on. At least not federally. It's perfectly valid if I'm having the argument with someone who wants to pay zero taxes, but is fine using the roads currently in place. Now, if they're saving up to buy land in Montana and live off the grid - fine, they're trying to work their way out of a circumstance they didn't ask to be placed in. But if someone's an armchair libertarian who hypocritically feeds off the teat they claim to loathe, then I find their argument a bit harder to swallow.

throwaway2016a 9y ago
> It's perfectly valid if I'm having the argument with someone who wants to pay zero taxes, but is fine using the roads currently in place. I would find it hard to find that person even if I went to a gathering of Libertarians. Being anti-income tax is different than being anti-tax. Many Libertarian's are OK with (in one form or another): - Luxury sales and use tax (not on necessities like food and basic clothing) - Toll roads - Property tax - Local income tax With property tax being a little less common (although I am personally OK with it) because a lot of people will argue that if you have to pay taxes on it you don't really own it. Then again... I take that back... I WOULD be able to find that person at a gathering of libertarians but my personal experience is that he would be in the minority. Edit: to add to the lats sentence, perhaps a very loud vocal minority.
- featherverse 9y ago
  You don't own the land you own, even if you bought it. You are paying the zombie tax. Which is to say the population is growing too fast, there isn't enough land, and if there weren't regulations humans would kill you and steal your land and eat your corpse because humans are animals. So you pay a tax, that tax supports a system we call "society", which kills or controls the masses who would otherwise murder you and take everything you think you own. I call it the zombie tax because the best way to imagine the alternative would be the unstoppable hordes of zombies we see in hollywood films.
  - throwaway2016a 9y ago
    Note: I said I personally agree with property tax. I think it is vital to pay for the roads and other critical services homeowners get from the local municipality. I didn't take a stance on whether or not you actual own your real-estate.
  - pavel_lishin 9y ago
    If we accept the Zombie Tax premise, then we don't own anything.
    - featherverse 9y ago
      Well if you really want to get into the philosophy of this, it is important to first acknowledge that concepts like "society", or "property" are completely fictional, made-up ideas, that people simply invented. It's not that different from kids playing pretend in their parent's basement, inventing any rules they want for their game. They can do whatever they want, because there isn't anyone else around to tell them differently. A lot, I mean a _lot_ of people do not often think about this fact, they sort of assume that these concepts were handed down by some impossible deity (god is not real.) But the truth is they emerged from intelligent self-aware people who for various reasons simply decided that these things should exist. So with that in mind, if property is make-believe, how can you "own" something? What precisely is ownership? Just more make-believe, using different words. If it exists at all, it's a social contract, and when it's you versus everyone else, hate to break it to you but it means nothing.