9 ms·

Bitcoin Paper Wallets (2015)

125 points by j_s 9y ago

voldemort1968 9y ago
Neat! It's a lot like http://adamjgrant.github.io/bitcoinbills/ http://adamjgrant.github.io/bitcoinbills/
QML 9y ago
I presume these paper wallets, like paper cash, are subjected to possible erosion, water damage, or whatever happens during storage. Except with paper cash, you have some party, the government, willing to exchange it for new ones. What are the benefits of paper wallets over a hardware wallet or storing it online? Also, is it me or are people more paranoid with their Bitcoins than others with their USDs?
- s17n 9y ago
  With USD you may as well just put it in the bank - if the banking system fails your paper money probably won't be worth anything anyway. Bitcoin on the other hand could easily outlive any of the companies that will hold it for you.
- gruez 9y ago
  >What are the benefits of paper wallets over a hardware wallet or storing it online? you can use a multisig scheme where you have multiple private keys, but you only need a fraction of it to access your bitcoins.
  - QML 9y ago
    By multisig can be done with paper wallets, hardware wallets, and online right?
    - gruez 9y ago
      >hardware wallets costs $$$, whereas paper wallets are nearly free >online doesn't protect you if your computer is compromised
- Sir_Substance 9y ago
  >Also, is it me or are people more paranoid with their Bitcoins than others with their USDs? The basic deal of bitcoin is that it's harder for people to tell you what you can and can't do with it, but it's also harder for them to help you if you shoot yourself in the foot with that freedom. A lot of the peanut gallery is scared away by notions like "if you lose your key, there's no one you can yell at down a phone or sue to get your money back, so you'll just have to be an adult and plan carefully". What remains is people who are a bit more systematic and thorough with respect to their finances.
- jiggunjer 9y ago
  Those bitcoin banks have poor reps for security and liability. If a USD bank gets robbed you're insured. Also the USD bank can't invest your money without your knowledge. Well, at least not everything in high risk stuff.
- AgentME 9y ago
  >What are the benefits of paper wallets over a hardware wallet or storing it online? If you only have bitcoin on a single hardware wallet, then if that hardware wallet fails to work one day, then you're boned. Paper wallets are easy to maintain and visually verify the integrity of (they're just ink on paper). Definitely recommend people using them keep multiple copies in different locations though. By online: * if you meant in a computer connected to the internet, then if your computer gets malware then it could steal your bitcoin. * if you meant in an online exchange, then you have the above issue (malware could steal your login info) combined with the issue that the exchange could go offline / lose your money / run away with your money. (See MtGox, btc-e, etc.) >Also, is it me or are people more paranoid with their Bitcoins than others with their USDs? If money is stolen from your bank account, then the bank will reverse the transaction. Bitcoin transactions can't be reversed like that, so their security is solely in the user's hands.
  - brndnmtthws 9y ago
    This is misinformation. Typically you'd use a deterministic wallet[1], which permits you to restore the wallet from a backed up seed phrase. [1]: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Deterministic_wallet https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Deterministic_wallet
    - AgentME 9y ago
      I assume this was in response to this part? >If you only have bitcoin on a single hardware wallet, then if that hardware wallet fails to work one day, then you're boned. By "only have bitcoin on a single hardware wallet", I meant the case that the user did not back up their seed phrase (such as to a piece of paper). I was trying to hint that the best setup would be multiple paper wallet backups (or the seed phrase written onto multiple papers; I'm not sure it's useful to call that something other than a paper wallet) combined with a hardware wallet for actually making transactions.
- vit05 9y ago
  Paper Wallets is to storage your Bitcoin offline. You do not need to use paper. You could use metal, acrylic, tattoo in your body.
- DINKDINK 9y ago
  >What are the benefits of paper wallets over a hardware wallet? Cost. Use cases: one could transact in a medium trust environment using paper wallets passed around offline. >What are the benefits of paper wallets over storing it online? Limited attack surface. https://cryptoconsortium.org/standards/CCSS https://cryptoconsortium.org/standards/CCSS
  - maxerickson 9y ago
    How do you assign the trust level? The ease in duplicating a wallet beforehand (or even having a computer setup to dump it) points towards high trust for me.
- kobeya 9y ago
  If I kept my retirement funds in $100 bills, I would be just as paranoid about them too.
jiggunjer 9y ago
I thought it would make a cool movie device if you encrypt your paper wallet in a 2-of-3 method. Then store 2 parts in different safety deposit boxes in different countries and carry the 3rd on you. The movie then revolves about getting your cash while on the run from several governments. I bet James Bond uses bitcoin.
- Retric 9y ago
  It's less effort to just memorize a 256 bit private key.
  - AgentME 9y ago
    One neat thing about multisig keys physically spread is that it's extremely more difficult to coerce someone to make a payment. If an attacker knows you have a ton of money locked up behind a key you have memorized, they can kidnap and torture you until you give them the key. If the money is locked behind multiple keys physically spread and you're known to be the paranoid sort to do that, then it becomes a lot more logistically challenging and may deter kidnappers: some of the locations could have physical security (ie. it's in a bank safe deposit box that the bank only allows the owner alone to physically access), there's more chances for the victim to get away, the attackers can't know ahead of time if the victim is leading them on a wild goose chase to incorrect locations, etc.
    - sillysaurus3 9y ago
      This appeals to me in a way that's hard to articulate. It's the perfect combination of "this will never happen" and "well now, let's not be too hasty with our assumptions..."
      - AgentME 9y ago
        It makes me think of XKCD 538 and its alt-text (https://xkcd.com/538/ https://xkcd.com/538/ -- "Actual actual reality: nobody cares about his secrets"). The part that alt-text didn't foresee was that cryptocurrency would become a thing and that many people would store tons of value in it. I think anyone that got into Bitcoin early or has otherwise made it big in the cryptocurrency scene ought to seriously investigate setting up their funds in a way that they can't be quickly coerced into transferring it.
pmorici 9y ago
A better way to store your coins is to to get a HD hardware wallet like the Ledger Nano S, or KeepKey. These paper wallets are too vulnerable to destruction. With an HD wallet you get a 24 word seed (see BIP39) and if anything ever happens to the wallet you just buy a new one and restore from the see. To protect your seed you can carve the words into a block of brass which has a high enough melting point that it should survive a house fire. You can use something like a Bantam Milling machine if you don't want to do it by hand. For smaller amounts of money there is also OpenDime. They don't provide a back-up mechanism though so if the hardware goes your money is lost forever.
- pavel_lishin 9y ago
  > To protect your seed you can carve the words into a block of brass which has a high enough melting point that it should survive a house fire. You can use something like a Bantam Milling machine if you don't want to do it by hand. And people say that Bitcoin isn't user-friendly for beginners.
  - kobeya 9y ago
    It isn't. So what? Things will get better. And even if it doesn't, those who really need bitcoin will be able to use it.
    - QAPereo 9y ago
      Who “really needs to use it,” in your estimation?
      - rhencke 9y ago
        Bitpeople - folks made out of actual bits and bytes. They don't have the option of using physical currency, but coins made from actual bits is a good option for them. Bitcoin mining also provides bitpeople with a good job and steady income.
      - kobeya 9y ago
ryanmarsh 9y ago
I bought some water proof inkjet paper for my paper wallets. I did a few test runs under the kitchen sink. I don't know how this paper works but it's pretty awesome.
pscarey 9y ago
Why so much security focus on a non-internet connected PC, but so little focus on needing a non-internet connected (ever) printer? The printer is potentially an easier attack vector, and you've got to pass the funds into an electronic wallet prior to spending, presumably on your PC or phone, whilst an internet connection is enabled. Seems writing the wallet info down with a pen, then doing your best to ensure security when you have to use the wallet (e.g. live CD) is a better method?
Myrmornis 9y ago
Just create a file and put in in your google drive and don't lose access to that. Encrypt it as long as you are sure you will be able to decrypt it. I bet you that Google don't steal your bitcoins.
- quickthrower2 9y ago
  The point of Bitcoin is trust nooone. But as you say encrypt it, if you do this well Google can't steal the coins.

125 points by j_s 9y ago

voldemort1968 9y ago

Neat! It's a lot like http://adamjgrant.github.io/bitcoinbills/ http://adamjgrant.github.io/bitcoinbills/

QML 9y ago

I presume these paper wallets, like paper cash, are subjected to possible erosion, water damage, or whatever happens during storage. Except with paper cash, you have some party, the government, willing to exchange it for new ones. What are the benefits of paper wallets over a hardware wallet or storing it online? Also, is it me or are people more paranoid with their Bitcoins than others with their USDs?

s17n 9y ago
With USD you may as well just put it in the bank - if the banking system fails your paper money probably won't be worth anything anyway. Bitcoin on the other hand could easily outlive any of the companies that will hold it for you.
gruez 9y ago
>What are the benefits of paper wallets over a hardware wallet or storing it online? you can use a multisig scheme where you have multiple private keys, but you only need a fraction of it to access your bitcoins.
- QML 9y ago
  By multisig can be done with paper wallets, hardware wallets, and online right?
  - gruez 9y ago
    >hardware wallets costs $$$, whereas paper wallets are nearly free >online doesn't protect you if your computer is compromised
Sir_Substance 9y ago
>Also, is it me or are people more paranoid with their Bitcoins than others with their USDs? The basic deal of bitcoin is that it's harder for people to tell you what you can and can't do with it, but it's also harder for them to help you if you shoot yourself in the foot with that freedom. A lot of the peanut gallery is scared away by notions like "if you lose your key, there's no one you can yell at down a phone or sue to get your money back, so you'll just have to be an adult and plan carefully". What remains is people who are a bit more systematic and thorough with respect to their finances.
jiggunjer 9y ago
Those bitcoin banks have poor reps for security and liability. If a USD bank gets robbed you're insured. Also the USD bank can't invest your money without your knowledge. Well, at least not everything in high risk stuff.
AgentME 9y ago
>What are the benefits of paper wallets over a hardware wallet or storing it online? If you only have bitcoin on a single hardware wallet, then if that hardware wallet fails to work one day, then you're boned. Paper wallets are easy to maintain and visually verify the integrity of (they're just ink on paper). Definitely recommend people using them keep multiple copies in different locations though. By online: * if you meant in a computer connected to the internet, then if your computer gets malware then it could steal your bitcoin. * if you meant in an online exchange, then you have the above issue (malware could steal your login info) combined with the issue that the exchange could go offline / lose your money / run away with your money. (See MtGox, btc-e, etc.) >Also, is it me or are people more paranoid with their Bitcoins than others with their USDs? If money is stolen from your bank account, then the bank will reverse the transaction. Bitcoin transactions can't be reversed like that, so their security is solely in the user's hands.
- brndnmtthws 9y ago
  This is misinformation. Typically you'd use a deterministic wallet[1], which permits you to restore the wallet from a backed up seed phrase. [1]: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Deterministic_wallet https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Deterministic_wallet
  - AgentME 9y ago
    I assume this was in response to this part? >If you only have bitcoin on a single hardware wallet, then if that hardware wallet fails to work one day, then you're boned. By "only have bitcoin on a single hardware wallet", I meant the case that the user did not back up their seed phrase (such as to a piece of paper). I was trying to hint that the best setup would be multiple paper wallet backups (or the seed phrase written onto multiple papers; I'm not sure it's useful to call that something other than a paper wallet) combined with a hardware wallet for actually making transactions.
vit05 9y ago
Paper Wallets is to storage your Bitcoin offline. You do not need to use paper. You could use metal, acrylic, tattoo in your body.
DINKDINK 9y ago
>What are the benefits of paper wallets over a hardware wallet? Cost. Use cases: one could transact in a medium trust environment using paper wallets passed around offline. >What are the benefits of paper wallets over storing it online? Limited attack surface. https://cryptoconsortium.org/standards/CCSS https://cryptoconsortium.org/standards/CCSS
- maxerickson 9y ago
  How do you assign the trust level? The ease in duplicating a wallet beforehand (or even having a computer setup to dump it) points towards high trust for me.
kobeya 9y ago
If I kept my retirement funds in $100 bills, I would be just as paranoid about them too.

jiggunjer 9y ago

I thought it would make a cool movie device if you encrypt your paper wallet in a 2-of-3 method. Then store 2 parts in different safety deposit boxes in different countries and carry the 3rd on you. The movie then revolves about getting your cash while on the run from several governments. I bet James Bond uses bitcoin.

Retric 9y ago
It's less effort to just memorize a 256 bit private key.
- AgentME 9y ago
  One neat thing about multisig keys physically spread is that it's extremely more difficult to coerce someone to make a payment. If an attacker knows you have a ton of money locked up behind a key you have memorized, they can kidnap and torture you until you give them the key. If the money is locked behind multiple keys physically spread and you're known to be the paranoid sort to do that, then it becomes a lot more logistically challenging and may deter kidnappers: some of the locations could have physical security (ie. it's in a bank safe deposit box that the bank only allows the owner alone to physically access), there's more chances for the victim to get away, the attackers can't know ahead of time if the victim is leading them on a wild goose chase to incorrect locations, etc.
  - sillysaurus3 9y ago
    This appeals to me in a way that's hard to articulate. It's the perfect combination of "this will never happen" and "well now, let's not be too hasty with our assumptions..."
    - AgentME 9y ago
      It makes me think of XKCD 538 and its alt-text (https://xkcd.com/538/ https://xkcd.com/538/ -- "Actual actual reality: nobody cares about his secrets"). The part that alt-text didn't foresee was that cryptocurrency would become a thing and that many people would store tons of value in it. I think anyone that got into Bitcoin early or has otherwise made it big in the cryptocurrency scene ought to seriously investigate setting up their funds in a way that they can't be quickly coerced into transferring it.

pmorici 9y ago

A better way to store your coins is to to get a HD hardware wallet like the Ledger Nano S, or KeepKey. These paper wallets are too vulnerable to destruction. With an HD wallet you get a 24 word seed (see BIP39) and if anything ever happens to the wallet you just buy a new one and restore from the see. To protect your seed you can carve the words into a block of brass which has a high enough melting point that it should survive a house fire. You can use something like a Bantam Milling machine if you don't want to do it by hand. For smaller amounts of money there is also OpenDime. They don't provide a back-up mechanism though so if the hardware goes your money is lost forever.

pavel_lishin 9y ago
> To protect your seed you can carve the words into a block of brass which has a high enough melting point that it should survive a house fire. You can use something like a Bantam Milling machine if you don't want to do it by hand. And people say that Bitcoin isn't user-friendly for beginners.
- kobeya 9y ago
  It isn't. So what? Things will get better. And even if it doesn't, those who really need bitcoin will be able to use it.
  - QAPereo 9y ago
    Who “really needs to use it,” in your estimation?
    - rhencke 9y ago
      Bitpeople - folks made out of actual bits and bytes. They don't have the option of using physical currency, but coins made from actual bits is a good option for them. Bitcoin mining also provides bitpeople with a good job and steady income.
    - kobeya 9y ago

ryanmarsh 9y ago

I bought some water proof inkjet paper for my paper wallets. I did a few test runs under the kitchen sink. I don't know how this paper works but it's pretty awesome.

pscarey 9y ago

Why so much security focus on a non-internet connected PC, but so little focus on needing a non-internet connected (ever) printer? The printer is potentially an easier attack vector, and you've got to pass the funds into an electronic wallet prior to spending, presumably on your PC or phone, whilst an internet connection is enabled. Seems writing the wallet info down with a pen, then doing your best to ensure security when you have to use the wallet (e.g. live CD) is a better method?

Myrmornis 9y ago

Just create a file and put in in your google drive and don't lose access to that. Encrypt it as long as you are sure you will be able to decrypt it. I bet you that Google don't steal your bitcoins.

quickthrower2 9y ago
The point of Bitcoin is trust nooone. But as you say encrypt it, if you do this well Google can't steal the coins.