3 ms·

Reason not to envy the French as the head of a startup: You can't (afford to) fire anyone

by dbz 16y ago

maigret 16y ago
And as a startup employee, you can't be fired. But don't think there aren't any way around... Internships, time contracts and external contractors give more flexibility for the employers and more insecurity for the employees.
- tptacek 16y ago
  All this stuff adds up. In the US, you can incorporate inside of a day, online, hire immediately, and fire the instant it becomes clear that the employee isn't working out. We have painless incorporation. We have simple taxes. We have at-will employment. We have no requirements for vacation pay. We have minimal and simple holidays. Just as importantly, we have an economy of vendors and customers and services all built around those assumptions.
jacquesm 16y ago
So, the easy way around that is to employ people free-lance for a while and if that works out well hire them. There are plenty of good start-ups in France in spite of this apparent limitation (other European countries have similar laws on the books, but not all of them), in fact I think it makes it clear that both sides have rights and obligations. Incidentally, it is possible to fire someone with cause, but not 'on a whim'. A pretty humoristic (and unfortunately very realistic) take on this: http://blog.cocagne.com/how-to-fire-in-france.htm http://blog.cocagne.com/how-to-fire-in-france.htm
tptacek 16y ago
It also sucks that: * The culture expects (and until recently mandated) a 35 hour work week. * The tax administration is a nightmare. * The employment code is so bad that companies with just a few employees need a full-time person just to manage the forms. * The culture shuns startups (compare VC industries, for instance, or find articles in Forbes where just 10 years ago the majority of citizens wanted jobs as civil servants). * The culture is, like much of Europe, deeply classist, with leaders expected to graduate from an ultra-selective Ivy League of top schools. All respect for pioneering cuisine and viticulture, but, uh, we do that stuff pretty well now too. I'll stick with Wisconsin Hooks blue and Vermont Weston cheese, and you can keep the extra 4 weeks of vacation and the 1,000 forms per employees.
- Jun8 16y ago
  Interesting, when I wrote most of these points 4 mins ago I thought I'd be the only who point out the cons of living in France.
yuguo 16y ago
do you know what you're speaking about? or just repeating caricatures like sheeps? Consterning, frankly. And I'm a start-up ceo in France. Btw, you know what? Chinese don't wear braids anymore.

Reason not to envy the French as the head of a startup: You can't (afford to) fire anyone

by dbz 16y ago

Reason not to envy the French as the head of a startup: You can't (afford to) fire anyone

And as a startup employee, you can't be fired. But don't think there aren't any way around... Internships, time contracts and external contractors give more flexibility for the employers and more insecurity for the employees.

tptacek 16y ago
All this stuff adds up. In the US, you can incorporate inside of a day, online, hire immediately, and fire the instant it becomes clear that the employee isn't working out. We have painless incorporation. We have simple taxes. We have at-will employment. We have no requirements for vacation pay. We have minimal and simple holidays. Just as importantly, we have an economy of vendors and customers and services all built around those assumptions.

jacquesm 16y ago

So, the easy way around that is to employ people free-lance for a while and if that works out well hire them. There are plenty of good start-ups in France in spite of this apparent limitation (other European countries have similar laws on the books, but not all of them), in fact I think it makes it clear that both sides have rights and obligations. Incidentally, it is possible to fire someone with cause, but not 'on a whim'. A pretty humoristic (and unfortunately very realistic) take on this: http://blog.cocagne.com/how-to-fire-in-france.htm http://blog.cocagne.com/how-to-fire-in-france.htm

tptacek 16y ago

It also sucks that: * The culture expects (and until recently mandated) a 35 hour work week. * The tax administration is a nightmare. * The employment code is so bad that companies with just a few employees need a full-time person just to manage the forms. * The culture shuns startups (compare VC industries, for instance, or find articles in Forbes where just 10 years ago the majority of citizens wanted jobs as civil servants). * The culture is, like much of Europe, deeply classist, with leaders expected to graduate from an ultra-selective Ivy League of top schools. All respect for pioneering cuisine and viticulture, but, uh, we do that stuff pretty well now too. I'll stick with Wisconsin Hooks blue and Vermont Weston cheese, and you can keep the extra 4 weeks of vacation and the 1,000 forms per employees.

Jun8 16y ago
Interesting, when I wrote most of these points 4 mins ago I thought I'd be the only who point out the cons of living in France.

yuguo 16y ago

do you know what you're speaking about? or just repeating caricatures like sheeps? Consterning, frankly. And I'm a start-up ceo in France. Btw, you know what? Chinese don't wear braids anymore.