5 ms·

Reasons to Envy the French

9 points by AndrewDucker 16y ago

arethuza 16y ago
The main reasons I envy the French are: Chamonix, Val d'Isere, Courchevel, La Grave... And the language, and the food, and the trains... Not to mention that if you do get into serious trouble French people are quite often more helpful than other nationalities - I believe this is linked to an odd law they have that requires people to render assistance to people in danger.
dbz 16y ago
Reason not to envy the French as the head of a startup: You can't (afford to) fire anyone
- maigret 16y ago
  And as a startup employee, you can't be fired. But don't think there aren't any way around... Internships, time contracts and external contractors give more flexibility for the employers and more insecurity for the employees.
  - tptacek 16y ago
    All this stuff adds up. In the US, you can incorporate inside of a day, online, hire immediately, and fire the instant it becomes clear that the employee isn't working out. We have painless incorporation. We have simple taxes. We have at-will employment. We have no requirements for vacation pay. We have minimal and simple holidays. Just as importantly, we have an economy of vendors and customers and services all built around those assumptions.
- jacquesm 16y ago
  So, the easy way around that is to employ people free-lance for a while and if that works out well hire them. There are plenty of good start-ups in France in spite of this apparent limitation (other European countries have similar laws on the books, but not all of them), in fact I think it makes it clear that both sides have rights and obligations. Incidentally, it is possible to fire someone with cause, but not 'on a whim'. A pretty humoristic (and unfortunately very realistic) take on this: http://blog.cocagne.com/how-to-fire-in-france.htm http://blog.cocagne.com/how-to-fire-in-france.htm
- tptacek 16y ago
  It also sucks that: * The culture expects (and until recently mandated) a 35 hour work week. * The tax administration is a nightmare. * The employment code is so bad that companies with just a few employees need a full-time person just to manage the forms. * The culture shuns startups (compare VC industries, for instance, or find articles in Forbes where just 10 years ago the majority of citizens wanted jobs as civil servants). * The culture is, like much of Europe, deeply classist, with leaders expected to graduate from an ultra-selective Ivy League of top schools. All respect for pioneering cuisine and viticulture, but, uh, we do that stuff pretty well now too. I'll stick with Wisconsin Hooks blue and Vermont Weston cheese, and you can keep the extra 4 weeks of vacation and the 1,000 forms per employees.
  - Jun8 16y ago
    Interesting, when I wrote most of these points 4 mins ago I thought I'd be the only who point out the cons of living in France.
- yuguo 16y ago
  do you know what you're speaking about? or just repeating caricatures like sheeps? Consterning, frankly. And I'm a start-up ceo in France. Btw, you know what? Chinese don't wear braids anymore.
antidaily 16y ago
Hacker News?
- jacquesm 16y ago
  Yep. If only because the author is a regular contributor here. What with the recent spate of questions here about what the ideal country to live in is this is one way in which you could answer that question.
  - Jun8 16y ago
    Disagree. People can blog on many different domains. Just because someone is a regular contributor here doesn't mean that all his ideas about anything under the sun is relevant to HN. Also, some of his points are highly debatable. The OP seesm to be against the Iraq war and mentions France's occupation of Algeria, but fails to notice the irony that that occupation was as brutal and unjust as the Iraq one. As for France being the best country to live in, well, this is not the place for that type of discussion, but just a few highlights to the contrary: (i) highly elitist attitude of French towards foreigners, especially if you cannot speak French well; (ii) toxic environment for startups (this applies to a lot of European countries but France is an extreme example, I think), (iii) high taxes (again, true for most Europe), (iv) (to me the worst) the Grand Illusion that French governments for the past 60 years have tried to continue, namely that France is a superpower, with its own sphere of influence (on paper, they love the Francophones, but if you are dark skinned and live in Paris you are despised). They go to great lengths, even detonating nuclear bombs and sinking Greenpeace ships to keep this illusion. OK, that was my prejudiced (aren't we all?) ideas on France. Now, let the downvoting begin.
    - jacquesm 16y ago
      I think you missed the humor in that post entirely.
      - Jun8 16y ago
        Maybe you are right. OP's post seems to be flame bait, but raises some interesting questions. As I said, these are loong discussions, better to be left for a meeting on a rainy day in a small Viennaise cafe, over pastries and hot tea. However, let me say this much: Every European country has prejudices about the other ones, and, of course, about the US. These are not well-known in the US, who tend to lump Europeans together (was IKEA from Sweden or Norway?) except for some simplistic stereotypes, i.e. Paris is the city of love, Germans make great cars, you can smoke pot in Netherlands, etc. etc. It's like the Chinese denoting all Europe as "Westerners". My favorite stereotype quote comes from Shibumi by Trevenian: "But even I am forced to admit that they [the French] are a ridiculous people, just as one must confess that the British are bungling, the Italians incompetent, the American neurotic, the Germans romantically savage, the Arabs vicious, the Russians barbaric, and the Dutch make cheese." The interesting thing is that there's always some truth in stereotypes. The thinking man's job is to find the percentage of truth. P.S. Kieslowski's *White" is a movie that I like, that addresses some of the issues of living in France (and being married to a French woman)
jobu 16y ago
How about religious intolerance? http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/07/13/france.burqa.ban/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/07/13/france.burqa.ban/...

9 points by AndrewDucker 16y ago

The main reasons I envy the French are: Chamonix, Val d'Isere, Courchevel, La Grave... And the language, and the food, and the trains... Not to mention that if you do get into serious trouble French people are quite often more helpful than other nationalities - I believe this is linked to an odd law they have that requires people to render assistance to people in danger.

dbz 16y ago

Reason not to envy the French as the head of a startup: You can't (afford to) fire anyone

maigret 16y ago
And as a startup employee, you can't be fired. But don't think there aren't any way around... Internships, time contracts and external contractors give more flexibility for the employers and more insecurity for the employees.
- tptacek 16y ago
  All this stuff adds up. In the US, you can incorporate inside of a day, online, hire immediately, and fire the instant it becomes clear that the employee isn't working out. We have painless incorporation. We have simple taxes. We have at-will employment. We have no requirements for vacation pay. We have minimal and simple holidays. Just as importantly, we have an economy of vendors and customers and services all built around those assumptions.
jacquesm 16y ago
So, the easy way around that is to employ people free-lance for a while and if that works out well hire them. There are plenty of good start-ups in France in spite of this apparent limitation (other European countries have similar laws on the books, but not all of them), in fact I think it makes it clear that both sides have rights and obligations. Incidentally, it is possible to fire someone with cause, but not 'on a whim'. A pretty humoristic (and unfortunately very realistic) take on this: http://blog.cocagne.com/how-to-fire-in-france.htm http://blog.cocagne.com/how-to-fire-in-france.htm
tptacek 16y ago
It also sucks that: * The culture expects (and until recently mandated) a 35 hour work week. * The tax administration is a nightmare. * The employment code is so bad that companies with just a few employees need a full-time person just to manage the forms. * The culture shuns startups (compare VC industries, for instance, or find articles in Forbes where just 10 years ago the majority of citizens wanted jobs as civil servants). * The culture is, like much of Europe, deeply classist, with leaders expected to graduate from an ultra-selective Ivy League of top schools. All respect for pioneering cuisine and viticulture, but, uh, we do that stuff pretty well now too. I'll stick with Wisconsin Hooks blue and Vermont Weston cheese, and you can keep the extra 4 weeks of vacation and the 1,000 forms per employees.
- Jun8 16y ago
  Interesting, when I wrote most of these points 4 mins ago I thought I'd be the only who point out the cons of living in France.
yuguo 16y ago
do you know what you're speaking about? or just repeating caricatures like sheeps? Consterning, frankly. And I'm a start-up ceo in France. Btw, you know what? Chinese don't wear braids anymore.

antidaily 16y ago

Hacker News?

jacquesm 16y ago
Yep. If only because the author is a regular contributor here. What with the recent spate of questions here about what the ideal country to live in is this is one way in which you could answer that question.
- Jun8 16y ago
  Disagree. People can blog on many different domains. Just because someone is a regular contributor here doesn't mean that all his ideas about anything under the sun is relevant to HN. Also, some of his points are highly debatable. The OP seesm to be against the Iraq war and mentions France's occupation of Algeria, but fails to notice the irony that that occupation was as brutal and unjust as the Iraq one. As for France being the best country to live in, well, this is not the place for that type of discussion, but just a few highlights to the contrary: (i) highly elitist attitude of French towards foreigners, especially if you cannot speak French well; (ii) toxic environment for startups (this applies to a lot of European countries but France is an extreme example, I think), (iii) high taxes (again, true for most Europe), (iv) (to me the worst) the Grand Illusion that French governments for the past 60 years have tried to continue, namely that France is a superpower, with its own sphere of influence (on paper, they love the Francophones, but if you are dark skinned and live in Paris you are despised). They go to great lengths, even detonating nuclear bombs and sinking Greenpeace ships to keep this illusion. OK, that was my prejudiced (aren't we all?) ideas on France. Now, let the downvoting begin.
  - jacquesm 16y ago
    I think you missed the humor in that post entirely.
    - Jun8 16y ago
      Maybe you are right. OP's post seems to be flame bait, but raises some interesting questions. As I said, these are loong discussions, better to be left for a meeting on a rainy day in a small Viennaise cafe, over pastries and hot tea. However, let me say this much: Every European country has prejudices about the other ones, and, of course, about the US. These are not well-known in the US, who tend to lump Europeans together (was IKEA from Sweden or Norway?) except for some simplistic stereotypes, i.e. Paris is the city of love, Germans make great cars, you can smoke pot in Netherlands, etc. etc. It's like the Chinese denoting all Europe as "Westerners". My favorite stereotype quote comes from Shibumi by Trevenian: "But even I am forced to admit that they [the French] are a ridiculous people, just as one must confess that the British are bungling, the Italians incompetent, the American neurotic, the Germans romantically savage, the Arabs vicious, the Russians barbaric, and the Dutch make cheese." The interesting thing is that there's always some truth in stereotypes. The thinking man's job is to find the percentage of truth. P.S. Kieslowski's *White" is a movie that I like, that addresses some of the issues of living in France (and being married to a French woman)

jobu 16y ago

How about religious intolerance? http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/07/13/france.burqa.ban/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/07/13/france.burqa.ban/...