5 ms·

I'm tired of two so wide spread dogmas - "will of majority is absolute good", "rich owes money to society, so we need rip them off". I lived in Sweden and now

I'm tired of two so wide spread dogmas - "will of majority is absolute good", "rich owes money to society, so we need rip them off". I lived in Sweden and now I live in the Netherlands. You have better chance to meet alien from another galactic than a person who doesn't believe in these dogmas. So I definitely see absolute political monogamy here. In centralized democracy high earners have absolutely no voice. I.e. formally they can vote but they will be always in the minority. So middle class and ultra-rich rule the game. Ones through voting, others through lobbying. So middle class can very effectively rips off high earners (a good example - Sweden). In other words, middle class strive to "equalize" them as they are not normal. They completely forgot that high earners already brought value to society while earning their money. The culture in many western european countries despise those who want to stand out of the crowd. So in this sense the crowd is against highly motivated and ambitious people. That's why I don't believe that Europe could beat Silicon Valley without significant cultural shift. Here are things I deeply hate in Swedish culture: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante Very similar ideologically thing in Dutch culture "Doe Normaal" which often translates to English as "Act normal, it's already crazy enough". Fortunately not every swede or dutch likes these "normality" things.

marvin 9y ago
Well said. I have been trying to pinpoint these sentiments for a while, but haven't quite figured it out. The ultra-rich and the middle-class ruling above others is a very eloquent way of phrasing it. Your description hits my native Norway very well. It is very difficult to excel and get recognition for it. In a discussion with my SO the other day, I was trying to find a Norwegian word for 'excel' and realized that we do not have this word in our language.
- lokedhs 9y ago
  In Swedish we have the word "överträffa" and I was sure there must be a corresponding Norwegian word. However, after looking at several different dictionaries, I really can't find a Norwegian word that translates to this. Two separate sources translates it with "stige" which doesn't sound right at all.
  - dagw 9y ago
    "overtreffe" is a Norwegian word. However they mean more to surpass some previous set benchmark. You have to "överträffa" something (either a set goal, someone else or your own previous effort), you cannot just "överträffa".
  - marvin 9y ago
    Specifically, I can't find a Norwegian word for "apply yourself to improve, be the best that you are able to and succeed". I think this is reflective of Norwegian culture, at least the parts that I have seen for the last 30ish years.
d--b 9y ago
That is certainly not true. In the US, republicans control the presidency and congress. It means that somewhere around 50% of american people believe that the rich should be taxed much less. I believe a similar fraction of European countries believe that too. The rich (whether they're on the left or on the right) have a massive impact on the media. Think Rupert Murdoch, think Oprah. There are 27 billionaires in Sweden. For a population of 10 million people. Per capita, that's about twice as much as the US. Stop feeling victimized for being on the right. The rich pay taxes, so that society seems fairer to those millions of people who make everything that the rich consume. Tough luck, but guess what, you can still become super rich, so what's the issue? You can talk to anyone who's worth more than 100 million: being twice as rich won't change a damn thing to their way of life. At this stage, it's only a matter of power and counting points.
- dagw 9y ago
  There are 27 billionaires in Sweden. No there are 27 billionaires with Swedish citizenship. I'd estimate that less than half of them live full time in Sweden. Also over 50% of them are from 1 of 4 families. and only 2 of them made their money by founding an actual company (as opposed to a hedge fund or trading company).
  - d--b 9y ago
    Ok, good to know. This only gives more reasons to increase taxes on inheritance and capital return...
- hal9000xp 9y ago
  In Sweden, you will pay 58% from your every Swedish krona for monthly salary above 55000 SEK (6873 USD). So social-democrats believe you are already rich having monthly income just above 6873 USD. At that level of income you have absolutely no vote over majority and you have zero lobby power and you obviously don't control any media. Having that level of income is already not normal and according to social-democrats you have to be "equalized". So when I hear "rich should pay their fair share", I know they are going after me! I've never seen social-democrat policies which touch only billionaires as they constantly claim! The pretty similar situation all across Europe with exception of German cantons of Switzerland. Yet ripping off upper middle class so effectively, western European socialists still constantly complain about "inequality". Which means, they are not satisfied to taking only 58% from me, they want more, much more. In fact, I believe they will be not satisfied until everybody is completely "equalized to death". I honestly do NOT believe that I owe anything to poor people. And I'm saying that as a person who born in Uzbekistan and lived in extreme poverty (my income in 2003 was ... 10 USD per month).
matrixtransform 9y ago
The Law of Jante seems similar to the british concept of "don't get ideas above your station" which is the cultural expression of the class system which acts as a block on social mobility. In the UK, thanks the the billionaire-owned tabloid political agenda, we have: Ultra-rich (old money, luck, extreme talent/charisma) Middle class (strivers, value creators, good people) Working class (tyrannical majority of freeloaders) Underclass (don't vote, who cares, lazy sub-human thieves) So in Scandinavia, it looks like this? Ultra-rich (old money, luck, extreme talent/charisma) Upper middle class (strivers, value creators, good people) Middle class (tyrannical majority of freeloaders, pretty bad people) (not mentioned) - Working class (lazy don't vote, who cares, sub-human thieves?) As a middle class, socially immobile value creator myself, I feel your pain, but why does your anger seem directed mainly at those below you in the hierarchy? Without getting too Marxist about it, value creation is a function of the entire system, genius and value creation can't happen in isolation. Billionaires drive on roads built by unskilled labourers, hedge fund managers still need their toilets cleaned and computer hardware upgraded. Human underachievement in advanced economies is a tragedy, but there are systemic roadblocks, it's not just moral and cultural degeneracy by a grasping, entitled populist majority.
petraeus 9y ago
You're not in the minority bud, sorry to break the news to you but the majority of people are selfish assholes who think all the opportunity in their life is simply the outcome of a god given right and ignore the centuries of oppression and theft that has enabled them to reach such a social status.
timthelion 9y ago
As a far left thinker myself, I too hate this obsession with taxing income. If we are going to tax the rich, we should tax equity not income. Tax the land the rich own, tax the resources they extract, tax the patents and intellectual property rights they hold. Tax only that. How free would we all be, if there was no tax on economic activity? I like to use the analogy of two boys in a playing field kicking a ball back and forth. Lets value the ball at $10. Each time they pass the ball from one to the other, they "create" $10 worth of economic activity, and under a simplified version of current logic, they should pay the state $2 for each pass. But what should really be taxed is the ball itself, and the land upon which they play. Not the number of times the ball changes hands.

marvin 9y ago

Well said. I have been trying to pinpoint these sentiments for a while, but haven't quite figured it out. The ultra-rich and the middle-class ruling above others is a very eloquent way of phrasing it. Your description hits my native Norway very well. It is very difficult to excel and get recognition for it. In a discussion with my SO the other day, I was trying to find a Norwegian word for 'excel' and realized that we do not have this word in our language.

lokedhs 9y ago
In Swedish we have the word "överträffa" and I was sure there must be a corresponding Norwegian word. However, after looking at several different dictionaries, I really can't find a Norwegian word that translates to this. Two separate sources translates it with "stige" which doesn't sound right at all.
- dagw 9y ago
  "overtreffe" is a Norwegian word. However they mean more to surpass some previous set benchmark. You have to "överträffa" something (either a set goal, someone else or your own previous effort), you cannot just "överträffa".
- marvin 9y ago
  Specifically, I can't find a Norwegian word for "apply yourself to improve, be the best that you are able to and succeed". I think this is reflective of Norwegian culture, at least the parts that I have seen for the last 30ish years.

d--b 9y ago

That is certainly not true. In the US, republicans control the presidency and congress. It means that somewhere around 50% of american people believe that the rich should be taxed much less. I believe a similar fraction of European countries believe that too. The rich (whether they're on the left or on the right) have a massive impact on the media. Think Rupert Murdoch, think Oprah. There are 27 billionaires in Sweden. For a population of 10 million people. Per capita, that's about twice as much as the US. Stop feeling victimized for being on the right. The rich pay taxes, so that society seems fairer to those millions of people who make everything that the rich consume. Tough luck, but guess what, you can still become super rich, so what's the issue? You can talk to anyone who's worth more than 100 million: being twice as rich won't change a damn thing to their way of life. At this stage, it's only a matter of power and counting points.

dagw 9y ago
There are 27 billionaires in Sweden. No there are 27 billionaires with Swedish citizenship. I'd estimate that less than half of them live full time in Sweden. Also over 50% of them are from 1 of 4 families. and only 2 of them made their money by founding an actual company (as opposed to a hedge fund or trading company).
- d--b 9y ago
  Ok, good to know. This only gives more reasons to increase taxes on inheritance and capital return...
hal9000xp 9y ago
In Sweden, you will pay 58% from your every Swedish krona for monthly salary above 55000 SEK (6873 USD). So social-democrats believe you are already rich having monthly income just above 6873 USD. At that level of income you have absolutely no vote over majority and you have zero lobby power and you obviously don't control any media. Having that level of income is already not normal and according to social-democrats you have to be "equalized". So when I hear "rich should pay their fair share", I know they are going after me! I've never seen social-democrat policies which touch only billionaires as they constantly claim! The pretty similar situation all across Europe with exception of German cantons of Switzerland. Yet ripping off upper middle class so effectively, western European socialists still constantly complain about "inequality". Which means, they are not satisfied to taking only 58% from me, they want more, much more. In fact, I believe they will be not satisfied until everybody is completely "equalized to death". I honestly do NOT believe that I owe anything to poor people. And I'm saying that as a person who born in Uzbekistan and lived in extreme poverty (my income in 2003 was ... 10 USD per month).

matrixtransform 9y ago

The Law of Jante seems similar to the british concept of "don't get ideas above your station" which is the cultural expression of the class system which acts as a block on social mobility. In the UK, thanks the the billionaire-owned tabloid political agenda, we have: Ultra-rich (old money, luck, extreme talent/charisma) Middle class (strivers, value creators, good people) Working class (tyrannical majority of freeloaders) Underclass (don't vote, who cares, lazy sub-human thieves) So in Scandinavia, it looks like this? Ultra-rich (old money, luck, extreme talent/charisma) Upper middle class (strivers, value creators, good people) Middle class (tyrannical majority of freeloaders, pretty bad people) (not mentioned) - Working class (lazy don't vote, who cares, sub-human thieves?) As a middle class, socially immobile value creator myself, I feel your pain, but why does your anger seem directed mainly at those below you in the hierarchy? Without getting too Marxist about it, value creation is a function of the entire system, genius and value creation can't happen in isolation. Billionaires drive on roads built by unskilled labourers, hedge fund managers still need their toilets cleaned and computer hardware upgraded. Human underachievement in advanced economies is a tragedy, but there are systemic roadblocks, it's not just moral and cultural degeneracy by a grasping, entitled populist majority.

petraeus 9y ago

You're not in the minority bud, sorry to break the news to you but the majority of people are selfish assholes who think all the opportunity in their life is simply the outcome of a god given right and ignore the centuries of oppression and theft that has enabled them to reach such a social status.

timthelion 9y ago

As a far left thinker myself, I too hate this obsession with taxing income. If we are going to tax the rich, we should tax equity not income. Tax the land the rich own, tax the resources they extract, tax the patents and intellectual property rights they hold. Tax only that. How free would we all be, if there was no tax on economic activity? I like to use the analogy of two boys in a playing field kicking a ball back and forth. Lets value the ball at $10. Each time they pass the ball from one to the other, they "create" $10 worth of economic activity, and under a simplified version of current logic, they should pay the state $2 for each pass. But what should really be taxed is the ball itself, and the land upon which they play. Not the number of times the ball changes hands.