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Is every single job at those companies really making the world worse in a way that other jobs aren't? How about all the technologies and research that have come

Is every single job at those companies really making the world worse in a way that other jobs aren't? How about all the technologies and research that have come out of specific teams' work?

jacobush 9y ago
Technologies are, to some extent more neutral. These people might not be doing much to make the world worse, but they are still pedalling along a bit.
throwaway613834 9y ago
I don't know how to respond to this. If you're a software engineer with a typical role at {insert "evil" company here} who is just trying to do the best in their role, are you making the world a better or a worse place? It's not like they're making the product decisions (and that's what I've been telling myself -- they're not the ones making the decisions; they're just implementing them), but it's also not like they aren't contributing to the "success" of their company. And certainly they could be working somewhere else that has a more positive role in making the world a better place. How do you draw a line?
- porker 9y ago
  That sounds very much like the "just following" orders defence, also known as "Superior Orders". More details @ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders
  - throwaway613834 9y ago
    Yeah I know. But it's also true that if they tried to do the opposite of what they were told (or if they just refused) then they'd get fired. So what do you do?
    - sillysaurus3 9y ago
      The most productive thing: Voice dissent. Ensure the higher-ups have thought through their position and the consequences. Assume they know things you don't. Ultimately, follow the order. Once it's their call, you're absolved of any responsibility. Both morally and in every meaningful sense.
      - throwaway613834 9y ago
        Okay, so how do I get my friends to do that is the question. Conveying this requires getting them to admit there is something wrong with what their employer is doing in the first place, and at that point I'd be already past the obstacle I'm trying to figure out how to overcome.
        sverige 9y ago
        After reading most of the comments, I think you tell them bluntly what you're thinking. If they listen to you, maybe they'll quit. If you lose their friendship, you can make new ones who don't work for evil companies. And if they keep doing evil things for a living but still want to be your friend, maybe you should be the one to end the friendship. I've done that a few times. It gets easier with practice.
        sillysaurus3 9y ago
        If they listen to you, maybe they'll quit. If you lose their friendship, you can make new ones who don't work for evil companies. This is what I meant by "Don't try to control your friends." If you don't let your friends have radically different beliefs from your own, you're just making an echo chamber for yourself.
      - alloyed 9y ago
        If your intent is to improve the world, and not just act superior, I don't see what this accomplishes. Hear dissent without action long enough and it becomes noise.
      - 9y ago
- KGIII 9y ago
  What is the level of culpability for a foot soldier in the army of an evil dictator? What is the level if they committed no atrocities? How about if they were an active participant? How about if they were zealous and inspired new levels of atrocious behavior? I don't have an answer and those are rhetorical questions. The point I'm laboring to make is that there are varied levels of culpability. There are also varied levels of evilness. We like to see the world in binary fashion, I think. This may not be new, but it is getting a lot more visible. Look at the political arena and the divisions between the politically active. Hmm... How to describe this? If I make a post that supports the right of Nazis to speak freely, I'm assumed to be as evil as they are (by some) and should be punched in the face. Yet, if I am speaking with White Nationalists and post a comment that supports the right for AntiFa to speak freely, I'm called everything from a Jew to communist. They don't actually take the time to stop and think that I'm not actually any of those things, that I'm just supporting the right to free speech - for everyone. If I'm not supporting Hillary, I'm supporting Trump - even though I voted for Stein. So, there are varied levels of evil and good - yet people seem to often focus on the extremes. Is Google evil? Maybe, but they've made mountains of information easily discoverable at no direct financial costs to the end user. Is Facebook evil? Maybe, but they've enabled broad communication with family and friends you might never have had the means to maintain on your own. Is Microsoft evil? Maybe, but they've done more to make the personal computer ubiquitous than any other company. It's very much a sliding scale and no company is completely evil, as is no one person. Well, except Oracle - they are pretty evil! I guess where you draw the line is a personal thing and, like the rest, is on a sliding scale. It's easier to try to place things into boxes and label them good and evil, but that's intellectually lazy and not very accurate. Even the most evil companies aren't entirely evil. shrugs That's my takeaway, for what it's worth. I also try really hard to not judge or to control. I do have lines that can be crossed, but I try to be understanding and have empathy. I'm not sure if this helps, but it works for me.
  - mirimir 9y ago
    Soldiers typically have a duty to refuse immoral orders.
    - 9y ago
- namandixit 9y ago
  As Lord Varys convinced himself- "I am not the one doing it."
pmontra 9y ago
Search makes the world better, using search placement to drive competitors out of the market makes the world worse. So the same company could have both good and evil parts. The internal decision makers shape the overall alignment of the company. Market can't fix that, especially when there are almost monopolistic positions. Regulations can. Maybe there are other ways but don't count on boycotts or things like that. See how much people is ready to give away for convenience (e.g. privacy.)
kodfodrasz 9y ago
Most of the research coming out of SV tech companies nowadays is yet annother chat platform, and reimplementing broken C code in broken JavaScript code. Is it making the World a better place? I don't think so. Is it making it a worse place? Only for other developers :)
- tanilama 9y ago
  > Most of the research coming out of SV tech companies nowadays is yet annother chat platform, and reimplementing broken C code in broken JavaScript code. I don't think so, there is a lot of stuff happening in a place that called SV. Maybe you are referring to the cool startup bunch?
  - kodfodrasz 9y ago
    Indeed I do, but also many other unnecessary innovations came out of SV, as well as some interesting Research, which end up used for solving problems which don't exist.
    - apersona 9y ago
      What's wrong with unnecessary innovations? There were lots of inventions/discoveries that didn't solve any existing problem during their time of discovery.
      - kodfodrasz 9y ago
        Their marketing is annoying me.

Is every single job at those companies really making the world worse in a way that other jobs aren't? How about all the technologies and research that have come out of specific teams' work?

jacobush 9y ago

Technologies are, to some extent more neutral. These people might not be doing much to make the world worse, but they are still pedalling along a bit.

throwaway613834 9y ago

I don't know how to respond to this. If you're a software engineer with a typical role at {insert "evil" company here} who is just trying to do the best in their role, are you making the world a better or a worse place? It's not like they're making the product decisions (and that's what I've been telling myself -- they're not the ones making the decisions; they're just implementing them), but it's also not like they aren't contributing to the "success" of their company. And certainly they could be working somewhere else that has a more positive role in making the world a better place. How do you draw a line?

porker 9y ago
That sounds very much like the "just following" orders defence, also known as "Superior Orders". More details @ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders
- throwaway613834 9y ago
  Yeah I know. But it's also true that if they tried to do the opposite of what they were told (or if they just refused) then they'd get fired. So what do you do?
  - sillysaurus3 9y ago
    The most productive thing: Voice dissent. Ensure the higher-ups have thought through their position and the consequences. Assume they know things you don't. Ultimately, follow the order. Once it's their call, you're absolved of any responsibility. Both morally and in every meaningful sense.
    - throwaway613834 9y ago
      Okay, so how do I get my friends to do that is the question. Conveying this requires getting them to admit there is something wrong with what their employer is doing in the first place, and at that point I'd be already past the obstacle I'm trying to figure out how to overcome.
      - sverige 9y ago
        After reading most of the comments, I think you tell them bluntly what you're thinking. If they listen to you, maybe they'll quit. If you lose their friendship, you can make new ones who don't work for evil companies. And if they keep doing evil things for a living but still want to be your friend, maybe you should be the one to end the friendship. I've done that a few times. It gets easier with practice.
        sillysaurus3 9y ago
        If they listen to you, maybe they'll quit. If you lose their friendship, you can make new ones who don't work for evil companies. This is what I meant by "Don't try to control your friends." If you don't let your friends have radically different beliefs from your own, you're just making an echo chamber for yourself.
    - alloyed 9y ago
      If your intent is to improve the world, and not just act superior, I don't see what this accomplishes. Hear dissent without action long enough and it becomes noise.
    - 9y ago
KGIII 9y ago
What is the level of culpability for a foot soldier in the army of an evil dictator? What is the level if they committed no atrocities? How about if they were an active participant? How about if they were zealous and inspired new levels of atrocious behavior? I don't have an answer and those are rhetorical questions. The point I'm laboring to make is that there are varied levels of culpability. There are also varied levels of evilness. We like to see the world in binary fashion, I think. This may not be new, but it is getting a lot more visible. Look at the political arena and the divisions between the politically active. Hmm... How to describe this? If I make a post that supports the right of Nazis to speak freely, I'm assumed to be as evil as they are (by some) and should be punched in the face. Yet, if I am speaking with White Nationalists and post a comment that supports the right for AntiFa to speak freely, I'm called everything from a Jew to communist. They don't actually take the time to stop and think that I'm not actually any of those things, that I'm just supporting the right to free speech - for everyone. If I'm not supporting Hillary, I'm supporting Trump - even though I voted for Stein. So, there are varied levels of evil and good - yet people seem to often focus on the extremes. Is Google evil? Maybe, but they've made mountains of information easily discoverable at no direct financial costs to the end user. Is Facebook evil? Maybe, but they've enabled broad communication with family and friends you might never have had the means to maintain on your own. Is Microsoft evil? Maybe, but they've done more to make the personal computer ubiquitous than any other company. It's very much a sliding scale and no company is completely evil, as is no one person. Well, except Oracle - they are pretty evil! I guess where you draw the line is a personal thing and, like the rest, is on a sliding scale. It's easier to try to place things into boxes and label them good and evil, but that's intellectually lazy and not very accurate. Even the most evil companies aren't entirely evil. shrugs That's my takeaway, for what it's worth. I also try really hard to not judge or to control. I do have lines that can be crossed, but I try to be understanding and have empathy. I'm not sure if this helps, but it works for me.
- mirimir 9y ago
  Soldiers typically have a duty to refuse immoral orders.
  - 9y ago
namandixit 9y ago
As Lord Varys convinced himself- "I am not the one doing it."

pmontra 9y ago

Search makes the world better, using search placement to drive competitors out of the market makes the world worse. So the same company could have both good and evil parts. The internal decision makers shape the overall alignment of the company. Market can't fix that, especially when there are almost monopolistic positions. Regulations can. Maybe there are other ways but don't count on boycotts or things like that. See how much people is ready to give away for convenience (e.g. privacy.)

kodfodrasz 9y ago

Most of the research coming out of SV tech companies nowadays is yet annother chat platform, and reimplementing broken C code in broken JavaScript code. Is it making the World a better place? I don't think so. Is it making it a worse place? Only for other developers :)

tanilama 9y ago
> Most of the research coming out of SV tech companies nowadays is yet annother chat platform, and reimplementing broken C code in broken JavaScript code. I don't think so, there is a lot of stuff happening in a place that called SV. Maybe you are referring to the cool startup bunch?
- kodfodrasz 9y ago
  Indeed I do, but also many other unnecessary innovations came out of SV, as well as some interesting Research, which end up used for solving problems which don't exist.
  - apersona 9y ago
    What's wrong with unnecessary innovations? There were lots of inventions/discoveries that didn't solve any existing problem during their time of discovery.
    - kodfodrasz 9y ago
      Their marketing is annoying me.