11 ms·

Rumours of Theils maleavolence are greatly exaggerated. His bio better resembles a modern day Ross Perot, libertarian and all. Network analysis and data mining

by rrggrr 9y ago

Rumours of Theils maleavolence are greatly exaggerated. His bio better resembles a modern day Ross Perot, libertarian and all. Network analysis and data mining inteilligence toolsets were used in the intel comminity lkng before Palantir, same as mercenaries were vighting foreign wars ling before Blackwater. A real problem in government is lack of domain expetise in oversight. Heres a chance to have some of that if the article is correct.

remarkEon 9y ago
I think I agree in part, though the framing of it in the Gizmodo piece that he seems "less" worried about Facebook is concerning. Google I get, Amazon sure, but why not Facebook? That seems like the most massive surveillance vector to ever exist and a company which might have a penchant for what's not too different from mind control. Edit: after reading the Vanity Fair essay (which is much better than this Gizmodo thing) I'm I think more skeptical, though it's more explicitly stated that Facebook is viewed in a more nefarious light.
- confounded 9y ago
  > but why not Facebook? Early investor, made him untold millions, tight with zucc, who's sacrificed personal capital to keep him on the board (despite his far-right politics).
  - remarkEon 9y ago
    Can you explain how his politics are "far-right"? I don't really consider Libertarianism an element of what's become the emergence of right wing authoritarianism.
    - confounded 9y ago
      - He believes that capitalism and democracy are incompatible. - He is strongly opposed to multiculturalism, and attributes many evils to it. Though when put under pressure to justify some of the views he published in his book on the subject (such as that women reporting rape is an organized leftist conspiracy to undermine white men), he simply said he never thought them. Genius! - He promotes political figures on the far right of US politics, like race-baiter Ann Coulter. Whether you consider him a libertarian or not, I can't do much about. Normally I'm against Americans abusing words with perfectly well established meanings for marketing purposes, but I fear this one is a lost cause.
      - remarkEon 9y ago
        On your first point, that doesn't seem like an idea unique to the Far Right at all. Plenty of Left Wing friends of mine don't think Capitalism works within a Democracy (though I'm sure for different reasons than Thiel). On your second, I think the virtue of Multiculturalism is at least worth debating. If he calls it "evil" that's not something I'd agree with, but that would align with a lot of Far Right thought. As for Coulter, she's just as much of a race baiter as any of the others on the Left that seem to attribute any problem they see to some race-based variable. I don't know of any instance where Theil has actively promoted her or her ideas but I'm ready to be proven wrong. Not sure what to make of that last paragraph. My guess is you're taking issue with "Libertarian" and implying that Thiel is in fact not one, and is using it to appeal to nominal "actual" Libertarians by hyjacking the word. This is of course quite possible.
        pryce 9y ago
        It isn't that Thiel thinks 'Capitalism and Democracy are incompatible' that makes him right-wing, it is that given he believes they are incompatible, he concludes Democracy should be discarded to preserve Capitalism, rather than the other way around. This is a far-right view.
        em3rgent0rdr 9y ago
        Not necessarily far-right because the political spectrum has more than one dimension.
        throwawayknecht 9y ago
        So first, this retort is vacuous because the whole point of Thiel's supposition is that the dimensions are not orthogonal. The meaning of the quote is that he is willing to move right on others (political structure, social issues, surveillance state, etc) to be able to move right on another (economic policy). But even putting that aside, on which dimension is Thiel not on the far-right? He's hardcore capitalist who supports (self-described!) monopolist policies; he sits on the board of a public surveillance company and is the chairman of a second military-industrial one; he published a book in which he called a substantial portion of rape victims liars; and we're talking about him getting an appointment in a right-wing movement in the federal government.
jacobolus 9y ago
Yeah, why bother with any kind of personal ethics? If you don’t take the dirty money, someone else will always be found, so it might as well be you, right? I mean look around, those guys over there got away with literal war crimes. For that matter, why should you let common law precedent or the rule of law prevent you from secretly funding third-party lawsuits as part of your personal revenge scheme? This is America and money should be able to do whatever it wants. And oh, funding the campaign an openly white supremacist, brags-about-sexual-assualt, famous fraudster and charlatan with no credentials who is obviously unprepared and poorly suited temperamentally to be president? Hey, if the bet pays off there’s great personal upside, so who cares if it would be terrible for the society?
CalChris 9y ago
He's definitely a libertarian although his definition of libertarian is completely malleable.
confounded 9y ago
Perot was in favor of direct democracy, Theil believes that democracy is making things too difficult for capitalism. Perot was in favor of increasing taxes on the rich, Theil is effectively a feudalist. Both men were billionaires who invested in computing and were involved in the 'military industrial complex'. But the word 'libertarian' has been dragged so far to the right in the US in recent years that it's not a meaningful category to compare the two with.
- SapphireSun 9y ago
  Would it be fair to say that US libertarians are anarcho-capitalists while the leftist libertarians are anarcho-syndicalists?
  - alphonsegaston 9y ago
    This is is irrelevant with regard to Thiel, because, as the parent points out, he’s a neo-feudalist working for the abolition of democracy. He funds several “Dark Enlightment” figures like Curtis Yarvin and even says as much himself: https://www.theverge.com/2017/2/21/14671978/alt-right-mencius-moldbug-urbit-curtis-yarvin-tlon https://www.theverge.com/2017/2/21/14671978/alt-right-menciu... https://www.cato-unbound.org/2009/04/13/peter-thiel/education-libertarian https://www.cato-unbound.org/2009/04/13/peter-thiel/educatio...
    - sjcsjc 9y ago
      Democracy does not equal liberty. It may, arguably, be the best way of preserving liberty. But then again it may not. "Many will be shocked to learn that the word “democracy” was neither used in the Declaration of Independence nor in the Constitution. Indeed, the Founding Fathers were anxious and fearful of allowing any form of tyranny, including the tyranny of the majority." [1] [1] https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/democracy-versus-liberty https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/democracy-versu...
      - gnaritas 9y ago
pryce 9y ago
How white supremacist do you have to be, to be acceptably labelled 'malevolent'? * Enough to consistently regard ethnic minorities as threatening? * Enough to consume white supremacist literature? * Enough to endorse white supremacist literature to those around you? * Enough to write white supremacist literature? Your threat model is a caricature. When individuals with track-records like Thiel are selected for positions of power, it makes all of us less safe: No amount of domain expertise will protect us from Thiel himself.
- 55555 9y ago
  What the hell are you talking about? It reads like you are accusing Thiel of being a white supremacist. If so, please provide citations.
  - pryce 9y ago
    I refer you Thiel's multiple published articles on multiculturalism during his time at Stanford for the journal 'Academic Questions', such as 'Multiculturalism and the decline of Stanford', followed by the book he co-authored called "the Diversity Myth", about how multiculturalism is horrific and how multiculturalism exists to destroy white culture, are where you should look if you wish to get a good idea of what is going on in that man's mind.
    - belorn 9y ago
      Is anyone who prefer cultural globalisation over multiculturalism a white supremacist?
      - aaroninsf 9y ago
        There's an obvious correlation, and the language of the former is also used as cover for self-identified white supremacists who until recently found themselves obliged to cloak or mute their views. NB: that correlation is less obvious for those who have the "right" culture.

by rrggrr 9y ago

remarkEon 9y ago

I think I agree in part, though the framing of it in the Gizmodo piece that he seems "less" worried about Facebook is concerning. Google I get, Amazon sure, but why not Facebook? That seems like the most massive surveillance vector to ever exist and a company which might have a penchant for what's not too different from mind control. Edit: after reading the Vanity Fair essay (which is much better than this Gizmodo thing) I'm I think more skeptical, though it's more explicitly stated that Facebook is viewed in a more nefarious light.

confounded 9y ago
> but why not Facebook? Early investor, made him untold millions, tight with zucc, who's sacrificed personal capital to keep him on the board (despite his far-right politics).
- remarkEon 9y ago
  Can you explain how his politics are "far-right"? I don't really consider Libertarianism an element of what's become the emergence of right wing authoritarianism.
  - confounded 9y ago
    - He believes that capitalism and democracy are incompatible. - He is strongly opposed to multiculturalism, and attributes many evils to it. Though when put under pressure to justify some of the views he published in his book on the subject (such as that women reporting rape is an organized leftist conspiracy to undermine white men), he simply said he never thought them. Genius! - He promotes political figures on the far right of US politics, like race-baiter Ann Coulter. Whether you consider him a libertarian or not, I can't do much about. Normally I'm against Americans abusing words with perfectly well established meanings for marketing purposes, but I fear this one is a lost cause.
    - remarkEon 9y ago
      On your first point, that doesn't seem like an idea unique to the Far Right at all. Plenty of Left Wing friends of mine don't think Capitalism works within a Democracy (though I'm sure for different reasons than Thiel). On your second, I think the virtue of Multiculturalism is at least worth debating. If he calls it "evil" that's not something I'd agree with, but that would align with a lot of Far Right thought. As for Coulter, she's just as much of a race baiter as any of the others on the Left that seem to attribute any problem they see to some race-based variable. I don't know of any instance where Theil has actively promoted her or her ideas but I'm ready to be proven wrong. Not sure what to make of that last paragraph. My guess is you're taking issue with "Libertarian" and implying that Thiel is in fact not one, and is using it to appeal to nominal "actual" Libertarians by hyjacking the word. This is of course quite possible.
      - pryce 9y ago
        It isn't that Thiel thinks 'Capitalism and Democracy are incompatible' that makes him right-wing, it is that given he believes they are incompatible, he concludes Democracy should be discarded to preserve Capitalism, rather than the other way around. This is a far-right view.
        em3rgent0rdr 9y ago
        Not necessarily far-right because the political spectrum has more than one dimension.
        throwawayknecht 9y ago
        So first, this retort is vacuous because the whole point of Thiel's supposition is that the dimensions are not orthogonal. The meaning of the quote is that he is willing to move right on others (political structure, social issues, surveillance state, etc) to be able to move right on another (economic policy). But even putting that aside, on which dimension is Thiel not on the far-right? He's hardcore capitalist who supports (self-described!) monopolist policies; he sits on the board of a public surveillance company and is the chairman of a second military-industrial one; he published a book in which he called a substantial portion of rape victims liars; and we're talking about him getting an appointment in a right-wing movement in the federal government.

jacobolus 9y ago

Yeah, why bother with any kind of personal ethics? If you don’t take the dirty money, someone else will always be found, so it might as well be you, right? I mean look around, those guys over there got away with literal war crimes. For that matter, why should you let common law precedent or the rule of law prevent you from secretly funding third-party lawsuits as part of your personal revenge scheme? This is America and money should be able to do whatever it wants. And oh, funding the campaign an openly white supremacist, brags-about-sexual-assualt, famous fraudster and charlatan with no credentials who is obviously unprepared and poorly suited temperamentally to be president? Hey, if the bet pays off there’s great personal upside, so who cares if it would be terrible for the society?

CalChris 9y ago

He's definitely a libertarian although his definition of libertarian is completely malleable.

confounded 9y ago

Perot was in favor of direct democracy, Theil believes that democracy is making things too difficult for capitalism. Perot was in favor of increasing taxes on the rich, Theil is effectively a feudalist. Both men were billionaires who invested in computing and were involved in the 'military industrial complex'. But the word 'libertarian' has been dragged so far to the right in the US in recent years that it's not a meaningful category to compare the two with.

SapphireSun 9y ago
Would it be fair to say that US libertarians are anarcho-capitalists while the leftist libertarians are anarcho-syndicalists?
- alphonsegaston 9y ago
  This is is irrelevant with regard to Thiel, because, as the parent points out, he’s a neo-feudalist working for the abolition of democracy. He funds several “Dark Enlightment” figures like Curtis Yarvin and even says as much himself: https://www.theverge.com/2017/2/21/14671978/alt-right-mencius-moldbug-urbit-curtis-yarvin-tlon https://www.theverge.com/2017/2/21/14671978/alt-right-menciu... https://www.cato-unbound.org/2009/04/13/peter-thiel/education-libertarian https://www.cato-unbound.org/2009/04/13/peter-thiel/educatio...
  - sjcsjc 9y ago
    Democracy does not equal liberty. It may, arguably, be the best way of preserving liberty. But then again it may not. "Many will be shocked to learn that the word “democracy” was neither used in the Declaration of Independence nor in the Constitution. Indeed, the Founding Fathers were anxious and fearful of allowing any form of tyranny, including the tyranny of the majority." [1] [1] https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/democracy-versus-liberty https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/democracy-versu...
    - gnaritas 9y ago

pryce 9y ago

How white supremacist do you have to be, to be acceptably labelled 'malevolent'? * Enough to consistently regard ethnic minorities as threatening? * Enough to consume white supremacist literature? * Enough to endorse white supremacist literature to those around you? * Enough to write white supremacist literature? Your threat model is a caricature. When individuals with track-records like Thiel are selected for positions of power, it makes all of us less safe: No amount of domain expertise will protect us from Thiel himself.

55555 9y ago
What the hell are you talking about? It reads like you are accusing Thiel of being a white supremacist. If so, please provide citations.
- pryce 9y ago
  I refer you Thiel's multiple published articles on multiculturalism during his time at Stanford for the journal 'Academic Questions', such as 'Multiculturalism and the decline of Stanford', followed by the book he co-authored called "the Diversity Myth", about how multiculturalism is horrific and how multiculturalism exists to destroy white culture, are where you should look if you wish to get a good idea of what is going on in that man's mind.
  - belorn 9y ago
    Is anyone who prefer cultural globalisation over multiculturalism a white supremacist?
    - aaroninsf 9y ago
      There's an obvious correlation, and the language of the former is also used as cover for self-identified white supremacists who until recently found themselves obliged to cloak or mute their views. NB: that correlation is less obvious for those who have the "right" culture.