9 ms·

>“Japanese food was created here, and only Japanese know it,” Mr. Kadowaki said in an interview. “How can a bunch of foreigners show up and tell us what is good

by ue_ 9y ago

>“Japanese food was created here, and only Japanese know it,” Mr. Kadowaki said in an interview. “How can a bunch of foreigners show up and tell us what is good or bad?” I feel like this has a xenophobic undertone to it; nobody's showing up anywhere, it's a guide which attempts to find good restaurants and food around the globe; what makes the Japanese in his view so specially qualified to judge the food? If the food was only found to be tasteful for Japanese tastes then I doubt it would have made its way into the Michelin guide, no?

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
KGIII 9y ago
> nobody's showing up anywhere I suspect they are? I mean, if they weren't showing up then the restaurant would be out of business, no? It does read a bit xenophobic, but it might be a pressure thing more than a nationality thing. People try to put pressure on those establishments. Sometimes, it's the chefs themselves who put the pressure on, sometimes it is visitors. People have committed suicide due to the pressures involved in trying to get onto the list and to maintain, or increase, their stars. Failure is difficult and may even result in financial ruin, as if restaurants weren't already inherently risky. So, I'm not sure that it is so much xenophobic as it is simply not wishing to be so publicly judged and/or pressured.
- ue_ 9y ago
  >I suspect they are? I mean, if they weren't showing up then the restaurant would be out of business, no? Sorry, I was under the impression that he's talking about the Michelin rating people showing up and telling them how good or bad his food is rather than simply visiting and writing a guide which contains his restaurant. I can understand the pressure of being on the list and maintaining one's position, but there's no reason why he couldn't let that slip; being lower on the list is better than not being on the list at all in terms of prestige, so he obviously doesn't care much what a "foreign" guide writes about him. The idea that only Japanese people can judge Japanese food seems to me very xenophobic; if that wasn't his intention then he should have spoken in general rather than targeting "foreigners".
  - KGIII 9y ago
    English may not be his native language and I'm just speculating. To me, it read more about the pressures exerted and the desire to not have to conform to an ideal presented by people who aren't members of the same culture. I'm not sure that qualifies as xenophobic, or even a bad thing. Should a Mexican restaurant be pressured into serving food that is more acceptable to the Canadian palate? (Pressured, not forced.) From what I've read, and a documentary, it's pretty high stress to meet the expectations and to do things in a certain manner. I can understand the desire to get out from under that. By foreigners, it may mean, 'not my usual customers.' So, I'm not sure if that's really xenophobic. I'm not seeing any fear involved, just displeasure about external pressures.
    - dahauns 9y ago
      No. 'Foreigners' very likely simply means 'foreigners' here. Japanese society is incredibly xenophobic and has quite well-known problems with casual, socially accepted racism. https://www.japantimes.co.jp/community/2015/11/01/issues/tackle-embedded-racism-chokes-japan/ https://www.japantimes.co.jp/community/2015/11/01/issues/tac... (Just a single example - but quick googling should you countless more from reputable sources)
    - etplayer 9y ago
      >So, I'm not sure if that's really xenophobic. A little nitpick, but "-phobia" suffix does not strictly mean fear, though that is its origin. It can also mean hatred. >Should a Mexican restaurant be pressured into serving food that is more acceptable to the Canadian palate? (Pressured, not forced.) No? I never said that; he shouldn't be pressured, but merely the act of serving foreigners or having his restaurant listed is not pressure to change -- in fact, if he changed, wouldn't that defeat the whole point of the rating system? He was rated on the Japanese food he serves, not the Canadian food.
  - ebfd 9y ago
    Maybe he believes that Japanese people are better judges on average. Traits about populations that concern <100% of their members can still hold utility.
chongli 9y ago
xenophobic undertone It's another facet of gentrification. A restaurant owner may really love having a small, local clientele of regulars and a very good atmosphere due to that fact. Then one day he gets awarded a Michelin star and suddenly thousands of tourists descend on his place and swamp it with unwanted business. Is it xenophobic to suggest he might prefer to go back to the previous situation?
- kodfodrasz 9y ago
  Also, if it was xenophobic. So what? Doesn't a businessman have the right to choose who to do business with? I believe free trade is a good thing, but seems like many americans mistook free trade for gunboat diplomacy (see opening of Japan). In my understanding free trade is free as in free will: both parties voluntarily take part in the exchange of goods and services. Also one can be patriotic in a way that he/she (no xe!) wants to preserve the cultural heritage, which is not only buildings and artifacts in museums, but also customs. Customs can be preserved by people sustaining them by continuously acting according to them. Local customs can be ruined pretty quickly via a huge influx of tourists. Example: In my younger day I could see elderly people sitting in the small parks around playgrounds and children playing at some parts of the city. Now in these parts of the city what I can see is playgrounds have been closed. Public places have been closed, no elderly talking, playing chess on a summer afternoon. Instead there are "party tourists" littering, being loud and drunk an sometimes acting atrociously as early as 2pm on weekdays. A local custom (socialization of the locals) has been wiped by tourism. Slowly locals are freeing the "party district". I can understand why one wants to avoid such situation (even as Michelin -tourists are not this troublesome, but starts a trend, which can even lead here). Is this xenophobic, then be so. I understand why people want to be xenophobic then.
  - nimchimpsky 9y ago
    > So what? Lots of people don't like xenophobia. > have the right to choose who to do business with? Ah here we go. Like the hoteliers who don't allow gay people to stay ?
    - 9y ago
kore 9y ago
Since that article, Kadowaki's actually now listed as a 2-star Michelin restaurant. Don't know what's happened since then, but I remember the name because it's the only Michelin restaurant I've ever dined in. Small world coming across it on HN! For what it's worth, the staff was pleasant and welcomed us as foreigners, asking where we were visiting from. Kadowaki came by at the end of the meal to put the finishing touches on his signature dish, and was just as welcoming. Pricey though!
beambot 9y ago
There are documentaries about the uber-rich foodies who treat these restaurants like Pokemon. Given the personalities involved, it doesn't surprise me that some chefs should actively want to shun them.
dieterrams 9y ago
Xenophobia could be part of it, but there’s probably an element of disdain (possibly deserved) for people who just chase Michelin restaurants but don’t have the palate necessary to really appreciate the food. An exaggerated analogy: someone who’s never had wine buys a bottle recommended by a highly respected wine expert, tries it, and goes, “Oh, that really is good!”
- alkonaut 9y ago
  The solution Ferrari uses to avoid some newly rich entrepreneur buying their limited series super cars is to require buyers to be proper collectors. They can't resell the car within N years, have to own M previous ferraris etc. This model is harder for restaurants, they actually want to avoid these Pokémon-style foodies and find the people that really appreciate the food. Not sure what the model would be for restaurants. Once you hit 3 stars you stop accepting tourists?
PurpleRamen 9y ago
Foreigners can say it's tasty, but local people undertand the chemistry and culture of specific ingredients and why it was choosen for a dish. That's not specific for a japan, but there is big culture around those thinking in japan. It's similar to how pop-culture-nerds can explain you every little reference in a movie or game, and explain you the history of specific genres, features and franchises. For a cook, it might be more satisfying to cook for someone who challanges him, who can talk to im on his level, instead of just catering the masses who gulp down the food and complain about nonsical things, which doesn't bring him forward. You can call it xenophobic, it probably is, but likely it's based on real experiences.
- ue_ 9y ago
  >but local people undertand the chemistry and culture of specific ingredients and why it was choosen for a dish So can foreigners who are familiar with Japanese food, or non-ethnically Japanese people in Japan. I understand your analogy to pop-culture nerds but I don't think it applies here - one can become on the same level as the nerd and talk to him in that way, but this chef is exclusionary and saying that no matter how much expreience a "foreigner" has with Japanese food, he can never understand it or properly judge it. This is not unique to Japanese food, I have seen this exact line echoed by a famous Japanese architect too with regard to his work. If he so wishes he should cater to people familiar with food, if anything those people are more "on his level" than a random Japanese person, so I really can't see why he's drawing the line at "Japanese" rather than at "familiar and experienced with food". I'm sure most Japanese just gulp down the food, and some surely do complain. Real experience or not, I think this kind of attitude has little place in modern society.
  - forgottenpass 9y ago
    this chef is exclusionary and saying that no matter how much expreience a "foreigner" has with Japanese food, he can never understand it or properly judge it. You're torturing the quote to look for intent that simply is not there. Maybe he does feel that there is no level of assimilation sufficient to judge Japanese food, but it's simply not there. It's an imprecise blanket statement made in the context of reviewers showing off their lack of assimilation with judgements seen as very incongruous with local tastes.
forgottenpass 9y ago
I feel like this has a xenophobic undertone to it meh, shrug. If this was any local cuisine other than Japanese -- who we have been taught to see as xenophobic -- the obvious follow-on retort wouldn't be about xenophobia, but about appropriation and generally more defensive of the culture's prerogative to define itself.
msla 9y ago
Yeah, that quote is just out-and-out racist, and it's disgusting to try to defend it.

by ue_ 9y ago

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

KGIII 9y ago

> nobody's showing up anywhere I suspect they are? I mean, if they weren't showing up then the restaurant would be out of business, no? It does read a bit xenophobic, but it might be a pressure thing more than a nationality thing. People try to put pressure on those establishments. Sometimes, it's the chefs themselves who put the pressure on, sometimes it is visitors. People have committed suicide due to the pressures involved in trying to get onto the list and to maintain, or increase, their stars. Failure is difficult and may even result in financial ruin, as if restaurants weren't already inherently risky. So, I'm not sure that it is so much xenophobic as it is simply not wishing to be so publicly judged and/or pressured.

ue_ 9y ago
>I suspect they are? I mean, if they weren't showing up then the restaurant would be out of business, no? Sorry, I was under the impression that he's talking about the Michelin rating people showing up and telling them how good or bad his food is rather than simply visiting and writing a guide which contains his restaurant. I can understand the pressure of being on the list and maintaining one's position, but there's no reason why he couldn't let that slip; being lower on the list is better than not being on the list at all in terms of prestige, so he obviously doesn't care much what a "foreign" guide writes about him. The idea that only Japanese people can judge Japanese food seems to me very xenophobic; if that wasn't his intention then he should have spoken in general rather than targeting "foreigners".
- KGIII 9y ago
  English may not be his native language and I'm just speculating. To me, it read more about the pressures exerted and the desire to not have to conform to an ideal presented by people who aren't members of the same culture. I'm not sure that qualifies as xenophobic, or even a bad thing. Should a Mexican restaurant be pressured into serving food that is more acceptable to the Canadian palate? (Pressured, not forced.) From what I've read, and a documentary, it's pretty high stress to meet the expectations and to do things in a certain manner. I can understand the desire to get out from under that. By foreigners, it may mean, 'not my usual customers.' So, I'm not sure if that's really xenophobic. I'm not seeing any fear involved, just displeasure about external pressures.
  - dahauns 9y ago
    No. 'Foreigners' very likely simply means 'foreigners' here. Japanese society is incredibly xenophobic and has quite well-known problems with casual, socially accepted racism. https://www.japantimes.co.jp/community/2015/11/01/issues/tackle-embedded-racism-chokes-japan/ https://www.japantimes.co.jp/community/2015/11/01/issues/tac... (Just a single example - but quick googling should you countless more from reputable sources)
  - etplayer 9y ago
    >So, I'm not sure if that's really xenophobic. A little nitpick, but "-phobia" suffix does not strictly mean fear, though that is its origin. It can also mean hatred. >Should a Mexican restaurant be pressured into serving food that is more acceptable to the Canadian palate? (Pressured, not forced.) No? I never said that; he shouldn't be pressured, but merely the act of serving foreigners or having his restaurant listed is not pressure to change -- in fact, if he changed, wouldn't that defeat the whole point of the rating system? He was rated on the Japanese food he serves, not the Canadian food.
- ebfd 9y ago
  Maybe he believes that Japanese people are better judges on average. Traits about populations that concern <100% of their members can still hold utility.

chongli 9y ago

xenophobic undertone It's another facet of gentrification. A restaurant owner may really love having a small, local clientele of regulars and a very good atmosphere due to that fact. Then one day he gets awarded a Michelin star and suddenly thousands of tourists descend on his place and swamp it with unwanted business. Is it xenophobic to suggest he might prefer to go back to the previous situation?

kodfodrasz 9y ago
Also, if it was xenophobic. So what? Doesn't a businessman have the right to choose who to do business with? I believe free trade is a good thing, but seems like many americans mistook free trade for gunboat diplomacy (see opening of Japan). In my understanding free trade is free as in free will: both parties voluntarily take part in the exchange of goods and services. Also one can be patriotic in a way that he/she (no xe!) wants to preserve the cultural heritage, which is not only buildings and artifacts in museums, but also customs. Customs can be preserved by people sustaining them by continuously acting according to them. Local customs can be ruined pretty quickly via a huge influx of tourists. Example: In my younger day I could see elderly people sitting in the small parks around playgrounds and children playing at some parts of the city. Now in these parts of the city what I can see is playgrounds have been closed. Public places have been closed, no elderly talking, playing chess on a summer afternoon. Instead there are "party tourists" littering, being loud and drunk an sometimes acting atrociously as early as 2pm on weekdays. A local custom (socialization of the locals) has been wiped by tourism. Slowly locals are freeing the "party district". I can understand why one wants to avoid such situation (even as Michelin -tourists are not this troublesome, but starts a trend, which can even lead here). Is this xenophobic, then be so. I understand why people want to be xenophobic then.
- nimchimpsky 9y ago
  > So what? Lots of people don't like xenophobia. > have the right to choose who to do business with? Ah here we go. Like the hoteliers who don't allow gay people to stay ?
  - 9y ago

kore 9y ago

Since that article, Kadowaki's actually now listed as a 2-star Michelin restaurant. Don't know what's happened since then, but I remember the name because it's the only Michelin restaurant I've ever dined in. Small world coming across it on HN! For what it's worth, the staff was pleasant and welcomed us as foreigners, asking where we were visiting from. Kadowaki came by at the end of the meal to put the finishing touches on his signature dish, and was just as welcoming. Pricey though!

beambot 9y ago

There are documentaries about the uber-rich foodies who treat these restaurants like Pokemon. Given the personalities involved, it doesn't surprise me that some chefs should actively want to shun them.

dieterrams 9y ago

Xenophobia could be part of it, but there’s probably an element of disdain (possibly deserved) for people who just chase Michelin restaurants but don’t have the palate necessary to really appreciate the food. An exaggerated analogy: someone who’s never had wine buys a bottle recommended by a highly respected wine expert, tries it, and goes, “Oh, that really is good!”

alkonaut 9y ago
The solution Ferrari uses to avoid some newly rich entrepreneur buying their limited series super cars is to require buyers to be proper collectors. They can't resell the car within N years, have to own M previous ferraris etc. This model is harder for restaurants, they actually want to avoid these Pokémon-style foodies and find the people that really appreciate the food. Not sure what the model would be for restaurants. Once you hit 3 stars you stop accepting tourists?

PurpleRamen 9y ago

Foreigners can say it's tasty, but local people undertand the chemistry and culture of specific ingredients and why it was choosen for a dish. That's not specific for a japan, but there is big culture around those thinking in japan. It's similar to how pop-culture-nerds can explain you every little reference in a movie or game, and explain you the history of specific genres, features and franchises. For a cook, it might be more satisfying to cook for someone who challanges him, who can talk to im on his level, instead of just catering the masses who gulp down the food and complain about nonsical things, which doesn't bring him forward. You can call it xenophobic, it probably is, but likely it's based on real experiences.

ue_ 9y ago
>but local people undertand the chemistry and culture of specific ingredients and why it was choosen for a dish So can foreigners who are familiar with Japanese food, or non-ethnically Japanese people in Japan. I understand your analogy to pop-culture nerds but I don't think it applies here - one can become on the same level as the nerd and talk to him in that way, but this chef is exclusionary and saying that no matter how much expreience a "foreigner" has with Japanese food, he can never understand it or properly judge it. This is not unique to Japanese food, I have seen this exact line echoed by a famous Japanese architect too with regard to his work. If he so wishes he should cater to people familiar with food, if anything those people are more "on his level" than a random Japanese person, so I really can't see why he's drawing the line at "Japanese" rather than at "familiar and experienced with food". I'm sure most Japanese just gulp down the food, and some surely do complain. Real experience or not, I think this kind of attitude has little place in modern society.
- forgottenpass 9y ago
  this chef is exclusionary and saying that no matter how much expreience a "foreigner" has with Japanese food, he can never understand it or properly judge it. You're torturing the quote to look for intent that simply is not there. Maybe he does feel that there is no level of assimilation sufficient to judge Japanese food, but it's simply not there. It's an imprecise blanket statement made in the context of reviewers showing off their lack of assimilation with judgements seen as very incongruous with local tastes.

forgottenpass 9y ago

I feel like this has a xenophobic undertone to it meh, shrug. If this was any local cuisine other than Japanese -- who we have been taught to see as xenophobic -- the obvious follow-on retort wouldn't be about xenophobia, but about appropriation and generally more defensive of the culture's prerogative to define itself.

msla 9y ago

Yeah, that quote is just out-and-out racist, and it's disgusting to try to defend it.