4 ms·

I think you're glossing over a ton of complexity with your "less random" comparison, because Lund is 2x the population density of Princeton. Given that sidewalk

by bb611 9y ago

I think you're glossing over a ton of complexity with your "less random" comparison, because Lund is 2x the population density of Princeton. Given that sidewalks are highly linked to population density, they're probably not a good comparison. Princeton is also a special case because it's a community that has a lot of fights about trees. Cutting down trees is heavily regulated there, you literally have to apply for a permit to cut down a tree (though I believe there are exemptions for emergencies), and the township and community are committed to the aesthetic of shaded roadways throughout. That almost universally (basically everywhere but right downtown, and even a fair amount there) means planting trees between the sidewalk and the curb, which in turn leads to increased damage to sidewalks from tree roots, so maintaining sidewalks becomes more expensive. It also means that sometimes you have to decide between having a flat sidewalk and doing enough damage that winter might kill a tree that's been growing for 30+ years. Those are things that are important to a lot of people living in town. I've lived next door to Princeton off and on for 20 of the last 30 years, hence the unnecessary knowledge of their social emphasis on trees. I think it's nice. I haven't seen any complaints about disabled access at the township level, and nothing came up in a quick google search.

sampo 9y ago
> Princeton is also a special case Sure, we can go to a random street next town over to New Brunswick: https://goo.gl/maps/uCrkh5fuMC62 https://goo.gl/maps/uCrkh5fuMC62
- bb611 9y ago
  A town with a median income ~20% below the national median, mostly because it's got a huge population of non-taxpaying resident college students. Yes, they pay tuition, but that is all spent on Rutgers' campus and doesn't make it out into town proper. Similar issues are common around large campuses in NYC, Philadelphia, Boston, etc. You seem like you're fishing about until you find a decent parallel, rather than actually having a decent one as a result of well researched comparisons. But more importantly, is the random production of poor sidewalks ever going to be convincing? If your point is "Western Europe does it better," it seems like the appropriate evidence would be statistical in nature, and if you don't have it random examples aren't actually a convincing alternative.
  - sampo 9y ago
    > it's got a huge population of non-taxpaying resident college students Rutgers University in New Brunswick: 69 000 students (but some are in campuses in other towns; Newark, Camden). Lund University: 42 000 students. If you don't like the towns I chose, why don't you suggest some town that you think would be acceptable here?
    - bb611 9y ago
      Sorry, you want me to make your argument for you? I'm not sure that even given your selection criteria I could do so, but if I did your methodology is still fundamentally flawed. There is very little reason to continue attempting to prove an argument if you know the outcome is fictional because the method of proving it is flawed.
volkl48 9y ago
As someone who lives in New Jersey in an area that often doesn't have sidewalks (Watchung Mountains) at all, you've reminded me of a related issue, which is that adding sidewalks can be exorbitantly expensive and impractical. Most of our roads are old colonial paths. They are twisty, high speed (these are main roads people use to get places), and cut into the hillsides in places. There's no curbing, no shoulder and no storm drains. The roads are lined with big old trees, utility poles are a foot or two off the side of the road, bridges are barely wide enough for two cars, fences and even houses are sometimes right up on the edges of these roads. ---------- They looked into putting in sidewalks on one of those roads at one point. It was going to cost millions of dollars and embroil them in lawsuits forever. Huge numbers of old-growth trees would have to come down, multiple bridges would have to be built (or the road ones would need to be rebuilt wider), the drainage ditch would have to get replaced with curbing and storm drains, a couple people with old houses that closely abut the road would no longer be able to use their driveways (which are currently just long enough to fit cars and not be in the road)....and on and on. Not surprisingly, the idea was dropped and never brought up again.

by bb611 9y ago

sampo 9y ago

> Princeton is also a special case Sure, we can go to a random street next town over to New Brunswick: https://goo.gl/maps/uCrkh5fuMC62 https://goo.gl/maps/uCrkh5fuMC62

bb611 9y ago
A town with a median income ~20% below the national median, mostly because it's got a huge population of non-taxpaying resident college students. Yes, they pay tuition, but that is all spent on Rutgers' campus and doesn't make it out into town proper. Similar issues are common around large campuses in NYC, Philadelphia, Boston, etc. You seem like you're fishing about until you find a decent parallel, rather than actually having a decent one as a result of well researched comparisons. But more importantly, is the random production of poor sidewalks ever going to be convincing? If your point is "Western Europe does it better," it seems like the appropriate evidence would be statistical in nature, and if you don't have it random examples aren't actually a convincing alternative.
- sampo 9y ago
  > it's got a huge population of non-taxpaying resident college students Rutgers University in New Brunswick: 69 000 students (but some are in campuses in other towns; Newark, Camden). Lund University: 42 000 students. If you don't like the towns I chose, why don't you suggest some town that you think would be acceptable here?
  - bb611 9y ago
    Sorry, you want me to make your argument for you? I'm not sure that even given your selection criteria I could do so, but if I did your methodology is still fundamentally flawed. There is very little reason to continue attempting to prove an argument if you know the outcome is fictional because the method of proving it is flawed.

volkl48 9y ago

As someone who lives in New Jersey in an area that often doesn't have sidewalks (Watchung Mountains) at all, you've reminded me of a related issue, which is that adding sidewalks can be exorbitantly expensive and impractical. Most of our roads are old colonial paths. They are twisty, high speed (these are main roads people use to get places), and cut into the hillsides in places. There's no curbing, no shoulder and no storm drains. The roads are lined with big old trees, utility poles are a foot or two off the side of the road, bridges are barely wide enough for two cars, fences and even houses are sometimes right up on the edges of these roads. ---------- They looked into putting in sidewalks on one of those roads at one point. It was going to cost millions of dollars and embroil them in lawsuits forever. Huge numbers of old-growth trees would have to come down, multiple bridges would have to be built (or the road ones would need to be rebuilt wider), the drainage ditch would have to get replaced with curbing and storm drains, a couple people with old houses that closely abut the road would no longer be able to use their driveways (which are currently just long enough to fit cars and not be in the road)....and on and on. Not surprisingly, the idea was dropped and never brought up again.