6 ms·

"At least in the UK the government allowed people to express themselves" The problem here in Spain/Catalonia is that Catalonian politicians only want Catalonia

"At least in the UK the government allowed people to express themselves" The problem here in Spain/Catalonia is that Catalonian politicians only want Catalonians to vote. I feel that, being a Spanish citizen of legal age, I have the same right to vote on whether I want a part of my country to separate from it. But they won't let us vote, so, why should "we" let them vote? (Also, as per the constitution, it is illegal)

kuroikyu 9y ago
Only Scotland voted on their referendum. The rest of the UK didn't nor couldn't vote. Would you let, let's say, France vote on your general elections to chose the next MP? Would you let a stranger choose the colour of the walls for your living room? Only Catalans can decide their own fate. It's up to them and no one else whether they stay or leave. I don't care which side wins but there must be a vote.
- e98cuenc 9y ago
  You can change your last sentence to say: "Only spanish can decide their own fate". Only Scotland voted on their referendum, as agreed by the whole United Kingdom. USA did not allow southern states secede, Germany did not allow Bavaria secede, etc.
enriquto 9y ago
What do you mean? in the scottish referendum only scots voted, not all brits. Are you saying that all spaniards (not only those living in Catalonia) should vote in the referendum? I don't see how this makes any sense.
- collyw 9y ago
  Actually it was people living in Scotland. As a Scot living in Spain I wasn't allowed to. "Fair enough" I though, until we got completely screwed over with the English and Welsh voting for Brexit. Lets face it the lead up to both referendums were based on packs of lies (on both sides probably - but it can only be proven for the winning sides).
- pvaldes 9y ago
  Spain is for all the spaniards. All have the same basic rights as the right to move freely inside the entire country, to work and live when they want inside its frontiers and to decide together about the destiny of their country. With logical exceptions (like requiring granted access to private areas); this super-basic concept is in use in all free and democratic countries of the world. New York people can't wake up some day, like a single man, and decide that Texans (or Floridians, or afroamericans), can not enter in the state anymore, their basic rights are expired and they have 48 hours to quit the place leaving its properties behind. Some people would point to the fair "self-determination right" from Newyorkers. Some even would shamelesly call this situation democracy, but it isn't. Would be a huge scam. NY are only a small part of the people that are USA citizens, and the other people have the f*ing right to express their opinion about that. No matter how peculiar, colorful, or different than other places is the city. In the same way Barcelona can not wake up some day and decide that people from Sevilla aren't allowed anymore to decide about the future of Barcelona and must quit the place. Unless of course we would aim to happily nuke the basic rights of 39 millions of citizen that are non-catalonian spaniards (to improve the chances for the 1-2 million of people than want Catalonia out of Spain). Is also a scam. Is a riged game. Democracy is the rule of the majority, and this constant actitude of I'm holier than thou so I must be allowed to speak but you can't is incredibly upsetting.
  - Oletros 9y ago
    > Spain is for all the spaniards. All have the same basic rights as the right to move freely inside the entire country, to work and live when they want inside its frontiers and to decide together about the destiny of their country. With logical exceptions (like requiring granted access to private areas); this super-basic concept is in use in all free and democratic countries of the world. Think that has nothing to do with a part of an state voting their secession and not the whole country. A question to all of the people that say that the whole country should vote. What would you do if more than 70% of the population of a part of the state would be independent? Allow them the independence and start the negotiations or don't allow>
    - pvaldes 9y ago
lucaspiller 9y ago
Only residents of Scotland were able to vote in the Scottish referendum, so it’s the same situation as this.
IncRnd 9y ago
> I feel that, being a Spanish citizen of legal age, I have the same right to vote on whether I want a part of my country to separate from it. But they won't let us vote, so, why should "we" let them vote? If a son or daughter of legal age wants to move out of their parents' house, does the rest of the family get to stop them from moving?
- mcdevilkiller 9y ago
  That has nothing to do with what I said.Totally different analogy.
peeters 9y ago
> The problem here in Spain/Catalonia is that Catalonian politicians only want Catalonians to vote. The same was true of the Scottish referendum. And the Quebec referendums. I'm not really for or against anything here, but it doesn't make any sense to have everyone vote in a secession referendum. It should be a referendum among the people attempting to secede. I could see there being a universal referendum on the wording of the referendum and the terms of secession though.
jeremy7600 9y ago
States vote for secession alone. Where they secede from has no say in the matter, hence secession. How do you think the crown would have voted when the US colonies declared independence?
lllllll 9y ago
You seem to agree with the way it went in the UK/Scotland. And yet as far as I can remember, only Scottish citizens voted in that referendum... Why would Catalonia's be different than any other self-determination referendum? Do you honestly believe this is a logical demand? If so, what % of "pro-independence" of Spanish census would be enough for you, 51% of whole Spain?
- mcdevilkiller 9y ago
  Yes, if more than half of Spain voted yes, it would be a yes. Happens all the time with presidents, every 4 years, right?
collyw 9y ago
A nice analogy I saw in the Scottish referendum was a divorce. Would it really make sense that both parties had to agree if one felt unfairly treated?
- notspanishflu 9y ago
  Is a nice analogy because... they were married before! In the Spanish case, there's only one part, so a nice analogy here is body amputation.

kuroikyu 9y ago

Only Scotland voted on their referendum. The rest of the UK didn't nor couldn't vote. Would you let, let's say, France vote on your general elections to chose the next MP? Would you let a stranger choose the colour of the walls for your living room? Only Catalans can decide their own fate. It's up to them and no one else whether they stay or leave. I don't care which side wins but there must be a vote.

e98cuenc 9y ago
You can change your last sentence to say: "Only spanish can decide their own fate". Only Scotland voted on their referendum, as agreed by the whole United Kingdom. USA did not allow southern states secede, Germany did not allow Bavaria secede, etc.

enriquto 9y ago

What do you mean? in the scottish referendum only scots voted, not all brits. Are you saying that all spaniards (not only those living in Catalonia) should vote in the referendum? I don't see how this makes any sense.

collyw 9y ago
Actually it was people living in Scotland. As a Scot living in Spain I wasn't allowed to. "Fair enough" I though, until we got completely screwed over with the English and Welsh voting for Brexit. Lets face it the lead up to both referendums were based on packs of lies (on both sides probably - but it can only be proven for the winning sides).
pvaldes 9y ago
Spain is for all the spaniards. All have the same basic rights as the right to move freely inside the entire country, to work and live when they want inside its frontiers and to decide together about the destiny of their country. With logical exceptions (like requiring granted access to private areas); this super-basic concept is in use in all free and democratic countries of the world. New York people can't wake up some day, like a single man, and decide that Texans (or Floridians, or afroamericans), can not enter in the state anymore, their basic rights are expired and they have 48 hours to quit the place leaving its properties behind. Some people would point to the fair "self-determination right" from Newyorkers. Some even would shamelesly call this situation democracy, but it isn't. Would be a huge scam. NY are only a small part of the people that are USA citizens, and the other people have the f*ing right to express their opinion about that. No matter how peculiar, colorful, or different than other places is the city. In the same way Barcelona can not wake up some day and decide that people from Sevilla aren't allowed anymore to decide about the future of Barcelona and must quit the place. Unless of course we would aim to happily nuke the basic rights of 39 millions of citizen that are non-catalonian spaniards (to improve the chances for the 1-2 million of people than want Catalonia out of Spain). Is also a scam. Is a riged game. Democracy is the rule of the majority, and this constant actitude of I'm holier than thou so I must be allowed to speak but you can't is incredibly upsetting.
- Oletros 9y ago
  > Spain is for all the spaniards. All have the same basic rights as the right to move freely inside the entire country, to work and live when they want inside its frontiers and to decide together about the destiny of their country. With logical exceptions (like requiring granted access to private areas); this super-basic concept is in use in all free and democratic countries of the world. Think that has nothing to do with a part of an state voting their secession and not the whole country. A question to all of the people that say that the whole country should vote. What would you do if more than 70% of the population of a part of the state would be independent? Allow them the independence and start the negotiations or don't allow>
  - pvaldes 9y ago

lucaspiller 9y ago

Only residents of Scotland were able to vote in the Scottish referendum, so it’s the same situation as this.

IncRnd 9y ago

> I feel that, being a Spanish citizen of legal age, I have the same right to vote on whether I want a part of my country to separate from it. But they won't let us vote, so, why should "we" let them vote? If a son or daughter of legal age wants to move out of their parents' house, does the rest of the family get to stop them from moving?

mcdevilkiller 9y ago
That has nothing to do with what I said.Totally different analogy.

peeters 9y ago

> The problem here in Spain/Catalonia is that Catalonian politicians only want Catalonians to vote. The same was true of the Scottish referendum. And the Quebec referendums. I'm not really for or against anything here, but it doesn't make any sense to have everyone vote in a secession referendum. It should be a referendum among the people attempting to secede. I could see there being a universal referendum on the wording of the referendum and the terms of secession though.

jeremy7600 9y ago

States vote for secession alone. Where they secede from has no say in the matter, hence secession. How do you think the crown would have voted when the US colonies declared independence?

lllllll 9y ago

You seem to agree with the way it went in the UK/Scotland. And yet as far as I can remember, only Scottish citizens voted in that referendum... Why would Catalonia's be different than any other self-determination referendum? Do you honestly believe this is a logical demand? If so, what % of "pro-independence" of Spanish census would be enough for you, 51% of whole Spain?

mcdevilkiller 9y ago
Yes, if more than half of Spain voted yes, it would be a yes. Happens all the time with presidents, every 4 years, right?

collyw 9y ago

A nice analogy I saw in the Scottish referendum was a divorce. Would it really make sense that both parties had to agree if one felt unfairly treated?

notspanishflu 9y ago
Is a nice analogy because... they were married before! In the Spanish case, there's only one part, so a nice analogy here is body amputation.