3 ms·

If by "stops obeying the constitution" you mean "holds a referendum" I would be fine with it. What I am not ok with is a central government rounding people up

by nsnick 9y ago

If by "stops obeying the constitution" you mean "holds a referendum" I would be fine with it. What I am not ok with is a central government rounding people up because they want to hold an election.

gfiorav 9y ago
Sure but now you’re deciding what parts of the constitution you obey and which ones you don’t. That just doesn’t scale. If you want to modify the constitution you need 2/3 of the senate. There’s a procedure for that. There no excuse to break the constitution. If you think there is, you had no argument to defend your own constitutional rights.
- nsnick 9y ago
  I think it is fine to not follow any part of any constitution that prevents democracy.
- kiliancs 9y ago
  The Spanish constitution recognizes the right to self-determination inasmuch as it explicitly enshrines the international treaties that define it. Spain (executive and judiciary) is choosing to ignore that (unlike Canada, for example), and not letting Catalonia exercise that right in any way. According to polls 70%/80% of Catalans think a referendum about independence should take place. The current Catalan government has the mandate from last elections to find a way for the Catalans to exercise this right even if Spain opposes, given that Spain has also refused all previous proposals to find a solution. Catalans literally have no other option. They either waive their right to self-determination or they exercise it. Some relevant sources: Referendum Law: http://dogc.gencat.cat/ca/pdogc_canals_interns/pdogc_resultats_fitxa/?action=fitxa&documentId=796531&language=ca_ES http://dogc.gencat.cat/ca/pdogc_canals_interns/pdogc_resulta... The Legitimacy of Catalonia's Exercise of its Right to Decide (a Report by a Commission of International Experts): https://www.unige.ch/gsi/files/9115/0461/7417/EXECUTIVE_SUMMARY_Catalogne.pdf https://www.unige.ch/gsi/files/9115/0461/7417/EXECUTIVE_SUMM...
  - notspanishflu 9y ago
    The so-called "right to self-determination" doesn't exist in the Spanish Constitution, nor in the International Law, nor in Comparative Law. https://elpais.com/elpais/2014/10/10/opinion/1412946101_991126.html https://elpais.com/elpais/2014/10/10/opinion/1412946101_9911...
    - kiliancs 9y ago
      Thats false. You'll find it usually in the first articles: - Charter of the United Nations, Chapter 1 (Purposes and Principles), article 1.2: "To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace" [1] - International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, article 1.1 (check out other points and article 2): All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development. [2] - International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, article 1.1: [pretty much same text as International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights) [3] - Spanish Constitution, part 1 (Fundamental Rights and Duties), Section 10.2: "Provisions relating to the fundamental rights and liberties recognized by the Constitution shall be construed in conformity with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and international treaties and agreements thereon ratified by Spain." [4] Though you only had to check Wikipedia: "The right of people to self-determination is a cardinal principle in modern international law (commonly regarded as a jus cogens rule)" [5] [1] http://www.un.org/en/sections/un-charter/chapter-i/index.html http://www.un.org/en/sections/un-charter/chapter-i/index.htm... [2] http://www.ohchr.org/EN/ProfessionalInterest/Pages/CESCR.aspx http://www.ohchr.org/EN/ProfessionalInterest/Pages/CESCR.asp... [3] http://www.ohchr.org/EN/ProfessionalInterest/Pages/CCPR.aspx http://www.ohchr.org/EN/ProfessionalInterest/Pages/CCPR.aspx [4] http://www.lamoncloa.gob.es/lang/en/espana/leyfundamental/Paginas/titulo_primero.aspx http://www.lamoncloa.gob.es/lang/en/espana/leyfundamental/Pa... [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination
kgwgk 9y ago
It’s not the central government rounding people up, the orders come from judges in Catalonia.
- monodeldiablo 9y ago
  Purely out of curiosity: Who appoints those judges?
  - kgwgk 9y ago
    The High Court of Justice of Catalonia, if I’m not mistaken.
    - Oletros 9y ago
      no, just a third are nominated by the Comunity https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribunal_Superior_de_Justicia_de_Espa%C3%B1a#Composici.C3.B3n https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribunal_Superior_de_Justicia_...
      - kgwgk 9y ago
        I was talking about who appoints the judges in the lower courts (like the one in Barcelona behind the operations being discussed). But if your point is that the Catalan administration is part of the Spanish administration and the Catalan legality can be traced back to the Spanish constitution then I fully agree.

by nsnick 9y ago

If by "stops obeying the constitution" you mean "holds a referendum" I would be fine with it. What I am not ok with is a central government rounding people up because they want to hold an election.

gfiorav 9y ago

Sure but now you’re deciding what parts of the constitution you obey and which ones you don’t. That just doesn’t scale. If you want to modify the constitution you need 2/3 of the senate. There’s a procedure for that. There no excuse to break the constitution. If you think there is, you had no argument to defend your own constitutional rights.

nsnick 9y ago
I think it is fine to not follow any part of any constitution that prevents democracy.
kiliancs 9y ago
The Spanish constitution recognizes the right to self-determination inasmuch as it explicitly enshrines the international treaties that define it. Spain (executive and judiciary) is choosing to ignore that (unlike Canada, for example), and not letting Catalonia exercise that right in any way. According to polls 70%/80% of Catalans think a referendum about independence should take place. The current Catalan government has the mandate from last elections to find a way for the Catalans to exercise this right even if Spain opposes, given that Spain has also refused all previous proposals to find a solution. Catalans literally have no other option. They either waive their right to self-determination or they exercise it. Some relevant sources: Referendum Law: http://dogc.gencat.cat/ca/pdogc_canals_interns/pdogc_resultats_fitxa/?action=fitxa&documentId=796531&language=ca_ES http://dogc.gencat.cat/ca/pdogc_canals_interns/pdogc_resulta... The Legitimacy of Catalonia's Exercise of its Right to Decide (a Report by a Commission of International Experts): https://www.unige.ch/gsi/files/9115/0461/7417/EXECUTIVE_SUMMARY_Catalogne.pdf https://www.unige.ch/gsi/files/9115/0461/7417/EXECUTIVE_SUMM...
- notspanishflu 9y ago
  The so-called "right to self-determination" doesn't exist in the Spanish Constitution, nor in the International Law, nor in Comparative Law. https://elpais.com/elpais/2014/10/10/opinion/1412946101_991126.html https://elpais.com/elpais/2014/10/10/opinion/1412946101_9911...
  - kiliancs 9y ago
    Thats false. You'll find it usually in the first articles: - Charter of the United Nations, Chapter 1 (Purposes and Principles), article 1.2: "To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace" [1] - International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, article 1.1 (check out other points and article 2): All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development. [2] - International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, article 1.1: [pretty much same text as International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights) [3] - Spanish Constitution, part 1 (Fundamental Rights and Duties), Section 10.2: "Provisions relating to the fundamental rights and liberties recognized by the Constitution shall be construed in conformity with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and international treaties and agreements thereon ratified by Spain." [4] Though you only had to check Wikipedia: "The right of people to self-determination is a cardinal principle in modern international law (commonly regarded as a jus cogens rule)" [5] [1] http://www.un.org/en/sections/un-charter/chapter-i/index.html http://www.un.org/en/sections/un-charter/chapter-i/index.htm... [2] http://www.ohchr.org/EN/ProfessionalInterest/Pages/CESCR.aspx http://www.ohchr.org/EN/ProfessionalInterest/Pages/CESCR.asp... [3] http://www.ohchr.org/EN/ProfessionalInterest/Pages/CCPR.aspx http://www.ohchr.org/EN/ProfessionalInterest/Pages/CCPR.aspx [4] http://www.lamoncloa.gob.es/lang/en/espana/leyfundamental/Paginas/titulo_primero.aspx http://www.lamoncloa.gob.es/lang/en/espana/leyfundamental/Pa... [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination

kgwgk 9y ago

It’s not the central government rounding people up, the orders come from judges in Catalonia.

monodeldiablo 9y ago
Purely out of curiosity: Who appoints those judges?
- kgwgk 9y ago
  The High Court of Justice of Catalonia, if I’m not mistaken.
  - Oletros 9y ago
    no, just a third are nominated by the Comunity https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribunal_Superior_de_Justicia_de_Espa%C3%B1a#Composici.C3.B3n https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribunal_Superior_de_Justicia_...
    - kgwgk 9y ago
      I was talking about who appoints the judges in the lower courts (like the one in Barcelona behind the operations being discussed). But if your point is that the Catalan administration is part of the Spanish administration and the Catalan legality can be traced back to the Spanish constitution then I fully agree.