4 ms·

"Brutal repression of freedom of speech or demonstrations" "Spain's a stable republic" It's saddens me to see so much ignorance and nonsense. Keeping aside that

"Brutal repression of freedom of speech or demonstrations" "Spain's a stable republic" It's saddens me to see so much ignorance and nonsense. Keeping aside that Spain is a monarchy, in today's Catalonia people have to fight for basic things like the right to educate their children in Spanish, mayors who do not support the referendum are being harrased by the radicals... that is a little example of the "oppresion" you talk about. They have pushed the government to the limit and they have to do something.

monodeldiablo 9y ago
And why do you think that such radicalism has taken hold in Catalonia? Has it ever been thus, or could it possibly be in reaction to something...? And do you think that the Spanish government's actions will encourage unity or fan the flames of separatism? I think Catalan independence is a stupid idea, but you'd have to be pretty blinkered not to see the historical, ongoing heavy-handedness of the Spanish government in response to its regions. Countries responsive to their citizenry don't, as a general rule, have two or more internal states in which >30% of the population wants to secede.
- logronoide 9y ago
  That "radicalism" has nothing to do with centralism. It has to do with radical nationalism of peripherical regional parties. They control the media, the education, the funding of heavily subsized companies with public money for more than 35 years. Spain is a very decentralized country, closer to a federal model. Right regional parties in Catalonia cannot keep on stealing from the public budget since the Great Recession. Their business model is over. They have to pivot to a new business model called "independence".
  - Oletros 9y ago
    > They control the media, the education, the funding of heavily subsized companies with public money for more than 35 years Like in the rest of Spain?
  - monodeldiablo 9y ago
    You didn't answer my question. People aren't born radical. And fringe regional parties don't come to control the media, education, and public purse without some significant measure of popular support. So once again: Why do you think radical secession is even on the table? Why do you think Catalan nationalism has flared up in recent years? Why would any young person support Catalan independence if Spain's federal government is meeting their needs? Answer that question honestly, and I think you'll realize where the problem is, and where the solution lies. (Hint: It's not censoring websites, arresting ministers, or raiding the officials of regional bureaucrats.)
severino 9y ago
> in today's Catalonia people have to fight for basic things like the right to educate their children in Spanish I don't think there's a right to be taught in the language of your choice, the same way you can't decide which subjects your children will study. At least not in Spain. > mayors who do not support the referendum are being harrased by the radicals Maybe you should look at what's happening to those supporting it.
- dawkins 9y ago
  That you can't even study in Spanish is only a little example about how reasonable is to talk about oppression. The mayors who support the referendum are just being called to declare by the tribunals and being told that what they are supporting is illegal.
- notspanishflu 9y ago
  "I don't think there's a right to be taught in the language of your choice". But there is the right. Is in the Spanish Constitution. Article 3.
  - Oletros 9y ago
    No, that article doesn't say that, that article says that Spanish must know Spanish language. And if people holds sacred the contituion, the TC didn't invalidated the linguistic immersion, it is constitutional
  - somecontext 9y ago
    For context for those interested, Article 3 of the Spanish Constitution says the following (translated into English): "1. Castilian is the official Spanish language of the State. All Spaniards have the duty to know it and the right to use it. 2. The other Spanish languages shall also be official in the respective Autonomous Communities in accordance with their Statutes. 3. The wealth of the different language modalities of Spain is a cultural heritage which shall be the object of special respect and protection."
6t6t6t6 9y ago
> right to educate their children in Spanish This is the kind of nonsense Catalans need to read every day from Spanish media. 100% of the children who finish secondary education in Catalonia are perfectly fluent in Catalan and Spanish. What those people want is to prevent their kids from learning Catalan. The amount lies, BS and bigotry that comes from unionists is amazing.
- pvaldes 9y ago
  > 100% of the children who finish secondary education in Catalonia are perfectly fluent in Catalan and Spanish. This is debatable, specially in ortography. There is always room to improve; and it seems that parents here and there demand more hours taught in spanish at the school since years. Those are just normal people that want the best for their children and have to fill the educational gaps at home, not politicians. On the other hand, isn't "Unionist" a peculiar word to refer to your neighbours?
  - 6t6t6t6 9y ago
    > On the other hand, isn't "Unionist" a peculiar word to refer to your neighbours? Independentist is the person who would prefer Catalonia being an independent state. Unionist is the person who wants Catalonia to stay united with Spain. I think that both terms are quite neutral. Do you have any idea for a better terminology? > This is debatable, specially in orthography. I guess that you are aware that there's an annual exam that assesses the knowledge level in several subjects (PISA). The result of this test shows, year after year, that the knowledge of Spanish language of the Catalan kids is slightly over the average of the country; and quite higher than many other regions that are Spanish monolingual.

monodeldiablo 9y ago

And why do you think that such radicalism has taken hold in Catalonia? Has it ever been thus, or could it possibly be in reaction to something...? And do you think that the Spanish government's actions will encourage unity or fan the flames of separatism? I think Catalan independence is a stupid idea, but you'd have to be pretty blinkered not to see the historical, ongoing heavy-handedness of the Spanish government in response to its regions. Countries responsive to their citizenry don't, as a general rule, have two or more internal states in which >30% of the population wants to secede.

logronoide 9y ago
That "radicalism" has nothing to do with centralism. It has to do with radical nationalism of peripherical regional parties. They control the media, the education, the funding of heavily subsized companies with public money for more than 35 years. Spain is a very decentralized country, closer to a federal model. Right regional parties in Catalonia cannot keep on stealing from the public budget since the Great Recession. Their business model is over. They have to pivot to a new business model called "independence".
- Oletros 9y ago
  > They control the media, the education, the funding of heavily subsized companies with public money for more than 35 years Like in the rest of Spain?
- monodeldiablo 9y ago
  You didn't answer my question. People aren't born radical. And fringe regional parties don't come to control the media, education, and public purse without some significant measure of popular support. So once again: Why do you think radical secession is even on the table? Why do you think Catalan nationalism has flared up in recent years? Why would any young person support Catalan independence if Spain's federal government is meeting their needs? Answer that question honestly, and I think you'll realize where the problem is, and where the solution lies. (Hint: It's not censoring websites, arresting ministers, or raiding the officials of regional bureaucrats.)

severino 9y ago

> in today's Catalonia people have to fight for basic things like the right to educate their children in Spanish I don't think there's a right to be taught in the language of your choice, the same way you can't decide which subjects your children will study. At least not in Spain. > mayors who do not support the referendum are being harrased by the radicals Maybe you should look at what's happening to those supporting it.

dawkins 9y ago
That you can't even study in Spanish is only a little example about how reasonable is to talk about oppression. The mayors who support the referendum are just being called to declare by the tribunals and being told that what they are supporting is illegal.
notspanishflu 9y ago
"I don't think there's a right to be taught in the language of your choice". But there is the right. Is in the Spanish Constitution. Article 3.
- Oletros 9y ago
  No, that article doesn't say that, that article says that Spanish must know Spanish language. And if people holds sacred the contituion, the TC didn't invalidated the linguistic immersion, it is constitutional
- somecontext 9y ago
  For context for those interested, Article 3 of the Spanish Constitution says the following (translated into English): "1. Castilian is the official Spanish language of the State. All Spaniards have the duty to know it and the right to use it. 2. The other Spanish languages shall also be official in the respective Autonomous Communities in accordance with their Statutes. 3. The wealth of the different language modalities of Spain is a cultural heritage which shall be the object of special respect and protection."

6t6t6t6 9y ago

> right to educate their children in Spanish This is the kind of nonsense Catalans need to read every day from Spanish media. 100% of the children who finish secondary education in Catalonia are perfectly fluent in Catalan and Spanish. What those people want is to prevent their kids from learning Catalan. The amount lies, BS and bigotry that comes from unionists is amazing.

pvaldes 9y ago
> 100% of the children who finish secondary education in Catalonia are perfectly fluent in Catalan and Spanish. This is debatable, specially in ortography. There is always room to improve; and it seems that parents here and there demand more hours taught in spanish at the school since years. Those are just normal people that want the best for their children and have to fill the educational gaps at home, not politicians. On the other hand, isn't "Unionist" a peculiar word to refer to your neighbours?
- 6t6t6t6 9y ago
  > On the other hand, isn't "Unionist" a peculiar word to refer to your neighbours? Independentist is the person who would prefer Catalonia being an independent state. Unionist is the person who wants Catalonia to stay united with Spain. I think that both terms are quite neutral. Do you have any idea for a better terminology? > This is debatable, specially in orthography. I guess that you are aware that there's an annual exam that assesses the knowledge level in several subjects (PISA). The result of this test shows, year after year, that the knowledge of Spanish language of the Catalan kids is slightly over the average of the country; and quite higher than many other regions that are Spanish monolingual.