4 ms·

If the law goes against one of the principles of democracy, the issue is with the law. What would your opinion be on a constitution that allows slavery? Because

If the law goes against one of the principles of democracy, the issue is with the law. What would your opinion be on a constitution that allows slavery? Because that was the case with a lot of constitutions in the past, and I think we would all agree that from a human right's point of view it was wrong. What's going on in Catalonia is illegal, but it's the democratically correct choice, and given what the Spanish government says ("we will only talk as long as it's within the legality"), it's the only thing you can do. For those HN readers that might not know, a decade ago Catalonia tried to pass something known as the Estatut, which would give us more rights and more power (similar to what the Basque country has had for a long time). Needless to say, it didn't pass because the big parties opposed to it. One of the two important political parties in Spain (the Popular party) went as far as going around Spain collecting signatures (four million) to get rid of the Estatut. And that's part of the story of how the pro-independence movement gained as much traction as it has right now.

notspanishflu 9y ago
Sure? The current situation doesn't have anything to do with Pujol family being close to go to jail for corruption? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordi_Pujol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordi_Pujol
- farresito 9y ago
  I have no idea what point you are trying to make. We are not talking about corruption here; we are talking about the right of self-determination.
  - notspanishflu 9y ago
    Yeah, and you feel so powerful downvoting everyone who doesn't aligned with your political strategy. I bet you are all for dialog, good arguments, better talk than fight... /s
    - farresito 9y ago
      I haven't downvoted a SINGLE comment, and even if I wanted I wouldn't be able because I don't have enough points. I never downvote, and of course I wouldn't downvote because someone has different views than me. Stop with the bullshit. Go to reddit if that's what you are looking for.
      - notspanishflu 9y ago
        "I haven't downvoted a SINGLE comment, and even if I wanted I wouldn't be able because I don't have enough points" Say the guy with 682 points.
        farresito 9y ago
        https://snag.gy/MirFLw.jpg https://snag.gy/MirFLw.jpg I can't downvote. If it's not because of the points, it's because of something else.
e98cuenc 9y ago
And what's exactly the principle of democracy that the spanish constitution is violating? The right of a part of a country to secede is not recognized by most constitutions around the world, and it is certainly not a "principle of democracy". You want to change the constitution that rules your country, you get 2/3 of the votes of the parliament behind your vote and the constitution changes (or whatever rule your constitution has to allow a change). The whole point of a constitution is to have a stable body of law. The Estatut went further than giving you something similar to what the Basque country has. It was ruled out because it was deemed incompatible with the constitution. This is exactly the same process any other country with a constitution follows. As for the "rights" that you are not enjoying, the only one I hear repeatedly is one: collect and distribute your own taxes, because you pay more taxes than what is reinvested in Catalonia (of course this happens in roughly half of the country). If New York asked to secede from the United States because they were oh so tired of paying more in taxes than the average in the US and receiving less than what they bring to the table (which is true for the vast majority of "rich" states) we will all see through the bullshit of the argument. If you want to follow that argument, when do you stop? is it right for my city to secede because we do not want to support the poor in rural areas around us? (this is not a retorical question, some big cities have historically done that, and many of them today are tax havens). Can I as an individual decide to not pay my taxes because I pay more than what I receive? Exactly what other right is missing in Catalonia?
- farresito 9y ago
  I'm referring to the right of self-determination. It might not fall under one of the principles of democracy (my apologies), but it's certainly a basic right (http://www.unpo.org/article/4957 http://www.unpo.org/article/4957) The Spanish constitution won't change because it's in their best interest to not do so, which is why this illegal referendum is being created. If they wanted the Estatut to pass, they would have passed; they didn't pass it because the rest of the Spanish communities would have been affected by it from an economical point of view (suddenly a chunk of money that was going to the other communities stays in Catalonia. Guess who's gonna be unhappy). As to when you stop with the right of self-determination, in the case of Catalonia, from a cultural, language, and historical point of view, there's enough reasons for a referendum to be held (given the discontent of the population). There's a similar situation with Quebec, for example. As far as I know, there's nothing about New York --language, history, or culture-- that would warrant a referendum, and there's certainly no reason for you as an individual to do so (you don't even have the basic political institutions).
ahachete 9y ago
That people has self-determination rights based on allegedly cultural and historic reasons is very weak point, and ignores the rule of law. But what is more worrisome is that it ignores the rights of the other group. What about the Spanish, not from Catalonia, that have interests in Catalonia, be it companies, properties, families or even just cultural links? Shouldn't they have an opinion on the matter? Unsurprisingly yes, and that's precisely what the Constitution says. And that's the supreme law, and I have not seen any other reasonable country where a subset of it is claiming so freely to withdraw the Constitution because they don't like it, even when there are very clear paths to change it. It Catalonia wants to vote, go to Parliament and ask for a referendum of all Spaniards (that's legal). It's that simple.

notspanishflu 9y ago

Sure? The current situation doesn't have anything to do with Pujol family being close to go to jail for corruption? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordi_Pujol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordi_Pujol

farresito 9y ago
I have no idea what point you are trying to make. We are not talking about corruption here; we are talking about the right of self-determination.
- notspanishflu 9y ago
  Yeah, and you feel so powerful downvoting everyone who doesn't aligned with your political strategy. I bet you are all for dialog, good arguments, better talk than fight... /s
  - farresito 9y ago
    I haven't downvoted a SINGLE comment, and even if I wanted I wouldn't be able because I don't have enough points. I never downvote, and of course I wouldn't downvote because someone has different views than me. Stop with the bullshit. Go to reddit if that's what you are looking for.
    - notspanishflu 9y ago
      "I haven't downvoted a SINGLE comment, and even if I wanted I wouldn't be able because I don't have enough points" Say the guy with 682 points.
      - farresito 9y ago
        https://snag.gy/MirFLw.jpg https://snag.gy/MirFLw.jpg I can't downvote. If it's not because of the points, it's because of something else.

e98cuenc 9y ago

And what's exactly the principle of democracy that the spanish constitution is violating? The right of a part of a country to secede is not recognized by most constitutions around the world, and it is certainly not a "principle of democracy". You want to change the constitution that rules your country, you get 2/3 of the votes of the parliament behind your vote and the constitution changes (or whatever rule your constitution has to allow a change). The whole point of a constitution is to have a stable body of law. The Estatut went further than giving you something similar to what the Basque country has. It was ruled out because it was deemed incompatible with the constitution. This is exactly the same process any other country with a constitution follows. As for the "rights" that you are not enjoying, the only one I hear repeatedly is one: collect and distribute your own taxes, because you pay more taxes than what is reinvested in Catalonia (of course this happens in roughly half of the country). If New York asked to secede from the United States because they were oh so tired of paying more in taxes than the average in the US and receiving less than what they bring to the table (which is true for the vast majority of "rich" states) we will all see through the bullshit of the argument. If you want to follow that argument, when do you stop? is it right for my city to secede because we do not want to support the poor in rural areas around us? (this is not a retorical question, some big cities have historically done that, and many of them today are tax havens). Can I as an individual decide to not pay my taxes because I pay more than what I receive? Exactly what other right is missing in Catalonia?

farresito 9y ago
I'm referring to the right of self-determination. It might not fall under one of the principles of democracy (my apologies), but it's certainly a basic right (http://www.unpo.org/article/4957 http://www.unpo.org/article/4957) The Spanish constitution won't change because it's in their best interest to not do so, which is why this illegal referendum is being created. If they wanted the Estatut to pass, they would have passed; they didn't pass it because the rest of the Spanish communities would have been affected by it from an economical point of view (suddenly a chunk of money that was going to the other communities stays in Catalonia. Guess who's gonna be unhappy). As to when you stop with the right of self-determination, in the case of Catalonia, from a cultural, language, and historical point of view, there's enough reasons for a referendum to be held (given the discontent of the population). There's a similar situation with Quebec, for example. As far as I know, there's nothing about New York --language, history, or culture-- that would warrant a referendum, and there's certainly no reason for you as an individual to do so (you don't even have the basic political institutions).

ahachete 9y ago

That people has self-determination rights based on allegedly cultural and historic reasons is very weak point, and ignores the rule of law. But what is more worrisome is that it ignores the rights of the other group. What about the Spanish, not from Catalonia, that have interests in Catalonia, be it companies, properties, families or even just cultural links? Shouldn't they have an opinion on the matter? Unsurprisingly yes, and that's precisely what the Constitution says. And that's the supreme law, and I have not seen any other reasonable country where a subset of it is claiming so freely to withdraw the Constitution because they don't like it, even when there are very clear paths to change it. It Catalonia wants to vote, go to Parliament and ask for a referendum of all Spaniards (that's legal). It's that simple.