6 ms·

We should of course be sceptical, but at the same time it seems that Spain is active so heavy handed in this and related matters that they are almost trying to

We should of course be sceptical, but at the same time it seems that Spain is active so heavy handed in this and related matters that they are almost trying to make this go violent.

gfiorav 9y ago
This is the thing: the referendum is ilegal according to constitution (agreed on by Catalans in the 70s). We can debate if it should or should not be ilegal, but it’s a different thing. These actions are taken to avoid violating the constitutional order, not the vote directly. If the constitution is being infringed, you can’t make exceptions.
- nsnick 9y ago
  We can also debate whether the response of the Spanish government is out of line. Nothing will bring about Catalan independence faster than heavy handed repression by the Spanish government.
  - gfiorav 9y ago
    My point is: How would you react if a regional government (which represent 30-40% of the people there) in your country stops obeying the constitution? Would you not stop the privacy infringement that is using census data ilegally? Would you not protect the 60-70% who didn’t vote the ruling party?
    - nsnick 9y ago
      If by "stops obeying the constitution" you mean "holds a referendum" I would be fine with it. What I am not ok with is a central government rounding people up because they want to hold an election.
      - gfiorav 9y ago
        Sure but now you’re deciding what parts of the constitution you obey and which ones you don’t. That just doesn’t scale. If you want to modify the constitution you need 2/3 of the senate. There’s a procedure for that. There no excuse to break the constitution. If you think there is, you had no argument to defend your own constitutional rights.
        nsnick 9y ago
        I think it is fine to not follow any part of any constitution that prevents democracy.
        kiliancs 9y ago
        The Spanish constitution recognizes the right to self-determination inasmuch as it explicitly enshrines the international treaties that define it. Spain (executive and judiciary) is choosing to ignore that (unlike Canada, for example), and not letting Catalonia exercise that right in any way. According to polls 70%/80% of Catalans think a referendum about independence should take place. The current Catalan government has the mandate from last elections to find a way for the Catalans to exercise this right even if Spain opposes, given that Spain has also refused all previous proposals to find a solution. Catalans literally have no other option. They either waive their right to self-determination or they exercise it. Some relevant sources: Referendum Law: http://dogc.gencat.cat/ca/pdogc_canals_interns/pdogc_resultats_fitxa/?action=fitxa&documentId=796531&language=ca_ES http://dogc.gencat.cat/ca/pdogc_canals_interns/pdogc_resulta... The Legitimacy of Catalonia's Exercise of its Right to Decide (a Report by a Commission of International Experts): https://www.unige.ch/gsi/files/9115/0461/7417/EXECUTIVE_SUMMARY_Catalogne.pdf https://www.unige.ch/gsi/files/9115/0461/7417/EXECUTIVE_SUMM...
        notspanishflu 9y ago
        The so-called "right to self-determination" doesn't exist in the Spanish Constitution, nor in the International Law, nor in Comparative Law. https://elpais.com/elpais/2014/10/10/opinion/1412946101_991126.html https://elpais.com/elpais/2014/10/10/opinion/1412946101_9911...
    - monodeldiablo 9y ago
      If 30-40% of the people want to leave your country, you have a problem. Hiding behind legal strictures made 40 years ago ignores the core issue entirely. The proper thing for the Spanish government to do is to sit down with the Catalans and engage in meaningful dialogue. Not kick in doors and jail people for participating in a non-binding referendum.
      - gfiorav 9y ago
        Just in case you didn’t read it right: 30-40% of Catalonia, which in whole is less than 20% of Spain’s population... so that’s like a 5-7% of Spanish population? The constitution is for all Spaniards.
notspanishflu 9y ago
The only party interested in violence is the CUP (see the history of those secessionists).

We should of course be sceptical, but at the same time it seems that Spain is active so heavy handed in this and related matters that they are almost trying to make this go violent.

gfiorav 9y ago

This is the thing: the referendum is ilegal according to constitution (agreed on by Catalans in the 70s). We can debate if it should or should not be ilegal, but it’s a different thing. These actions are taken to avoid violating the constitutional order, not the vote directly. If the constitution is being infringed, you can’t make exceptions.

nsnick 9y ago
We can also debate whether the response of the Spanish government is out of line. Nothing will bring about Catalan independence faster than heavy handed repression by the Spanish government.
- gfiorav 9y ago
  My point is: How would you react if a regional government (which represent 30-40% of the people there) in your country stops obeying the constitution? Would you not stop the privacy infringement that is using census data ilegally? Would you not protect the 60-70% who didn’t vote the ruling party?
  - nsnick 9y ago
    If by "stops obeying the constitution" you mean "holds a referendum" I would be fine with it. What I am not ok with is a central government rounding people up because they want to hold an election.
    - gfiorav 9y ago
      Sure but now you’re deciding what parts of the constitution you obey and which ones you don’t. That just doesn’t scale. If you want to modify the constitution you need 2/3 of the senate. There’s a procedure for that. There no excuse to break the constitution. If you think there is, you had no argument to defend your own constitutional rights.
      - nsnick 9y ago
        I think it is fine to not follow any part of any constitution that prevents democracy.
      - kiliancs 9y ago
        The Spanish constitution recognizes the right to self-determination inasmuch as it explicitly enshrines the international treaties that define it. Spain (executive and judiciary) is choosing to ignore that (unlike Canada, for example), and not letting Catalonia exercise that right in any way. According to polls 70%/80% of Catalans think a referendum about independence should take place. The current Catalan government has the mandate from last elections to find a way for the Catalans to exercise this right even if Spain opposes, given that Spain has also refused all previous proposals to find a solution. Catalans literally have no other option. They either waive their right to self-determination or they exercise it. Some relevant sources: Referendum Law: http://dogc.gencat.cat/ca/pdogc_canals_interns/pdogc_resultats_fitxa/?action=fitxa&documentId=796531&language=ca_ES http://dogc.gencat.cat/ca/pdogc_canals_interns/pdogc_resulta... The Legitimacy of Catalonia's Exercise of its Right to Decide (a Report by a Commission of International Experts): https://www.unige.ch/gsi/files/9115/0461/7417/EXECUTIVE_SUMMARY_Catalogne.pdf https://www.unige.ch/gsi/files/9115/0461/7417/EXECUTIVE_SUMM...
        notspanishflu 9y ago
        The so-called "right to self-determination" doesn't exist in the Spanish Constitution, nor in the International Law, nor in Comparative Law. https://elpais.com/elpais/2014/10/10/opinion/1412946101_991126.html https://elpais.com/elpais/2014/10/10/opinion/1412946101_9911...
  - monodeldiablo 9y ago
    If 30-40% of the people want to leave your country, you have a problem. Hiding behind legal strictures made 40 years ago ignores the core issue entirely. The proper thing for the Spanish government to do is to sit down with the Catalans and engage in meaningful dialogue. Not kick in doors and jail people for participating in a non-binding referendum.
    - gfiorav 9y ago
      Just in case you didn’t read it right: 30-40% of Catalonia, which in whole is less than 20% of Spain’s population... so that’s like a 5-7% of Spanish population? The constitution is for all Spaniards.

notspanishflu 9y ago

The only party interested in violence is the CUP (see the history of those secessionists).