5 ms·

Oh, you are from Gijón. Using the constitution as some sort of shield / holy bible that can't ever possibly be changed IS what show the weakness of Spanish dem

Oh, you are from Gijón. Using the constitution as some sort of shield / holy bible that can't ever possibly be changed IS what show the weakness of Spanish democracy. In the end, governments are there to serve their people. They don't make sense as entities on their own. They represent a group of people who chooses to be represented by their government. If the government attacks the people and refuses to hear to what people have to say, you need to resort to not following the dogma.

farresito 9y ago
Thank you. It's quite surprising how hard it is for a lot of people to understand this. Listening to the Spanish president say that what's going on in Catalonia is anti-democratic and that democracy is following the constitution is the most frustrating thing you can hear, and I'm surprised people use that argument against the pro-independence movement.
- rbanffy 9y ago
  Democracy requires the rule of law. The law says the vote should not take place, therefore either the vote doesn't take place or the law (the constitution, in this case) is changed. Politics is the art of the possible. Right now, this is not possible and pushing for it is not constructive.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - farresito 9y ago
    The Spanish constitution is violating one of the basic rights: the right of self-determination. To me, right now, it doesn't matter what the constitution says. We will ignore it. The constitution won't be changed because it's in their interest to not change.
    - notspanishflu 9y ago
      Basic right for whom? Are you talking basic human right? A random bunch of people right? Who? When defining a right, you must show who is the subject of that right.
      - farresito 9y ago
        I'm not completely sure what you are trying to say, but this is what I'm referring to: http://www.unpo.org/article/4957 http://www.unpo.org/article/4957
        notspanishflu 9y ago
        That's not an impartial source. Anyway, when that site states "All peoples have the right to self-determination" Is there a minimum number of people to aim for 'this right'? V.g. if 259 persons in Els Hostalets de Balenya say the want 'the right to self-determination', are they a nation from then?
        farresito 9y ago
        I answered this same question in another comment. Copy pasting: As to when you stop with the right of self-determination, in the case of Catalonia, from a cultural, language, and historical point of view, there's enough reasons for a referendum to be held (given the discontent of the population). There's a similar situation with Quebec, for example. As far as I know, there's nothing about New York --language, history, or culture-- that would warrant a referendum, and there's certainly no reason for you as an individual to do so (you don't even have the basic political institutions).
        notspanishflu 9y ago
        Responding a copypasta with another copypasta: The so-called "right to self-determination" doesn't exist in the Spanish Constitution, nor in the International Law, nor in Comparative Law. https://elpais.com/elpais/2014/10/10/opinion/1412946101_991126.html https://elpais.com/elpais/2014/10/10/opinion/1412946101_9911...
  - unethical_ban 9y ago
    If a supposedly democratic nation banned free speech, then I would proudly break the law. If a sufficient number of people in a geopolitical area wish to govern themselves, broadly, it should be seriously considered by any ethical government.
    - pvaldes 9y ago
      Like in the case of the Islamic State, for example? Hemmm...not.
      - unethical_ban 9y ago
        Like Catalonia, Britain, Scotland, South Sudan, the United States, or India? The circumstances matter. I can't draft a workflow for "ethical independence" on a Friday morning on HN. I can say there is a difference between self-determination and the desire for liberty vs. mass murder, conquering territory and waging guerrilla warfare against multiple nations.
- 6t6t6t6 9y ago
  War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength, Trying to organize a Referendum is Antidemocratic.
notspanishflu 9y ago
There's a legal way to change the Spanish Constitution. What people can't do is play outside the Law in a Democracy.
- Oletros 9y ago
  > There's a legal way to change the Spanish Constitution. Changing how when the two main parties are against this change? That argument is just an excuse. Articles of the Estatut d'Autonomia where denunced by present the ruling part declared invalid by the TC but that same party wrote carbon copies of them in other Estatutes it say how the situation can change.
  - notspanishflu 9y ago
    Oh, I see, the observance of the Law is just an excuse. If you state "that same party wrote carbon copies of them in other Estatutes" you have to give us sources.
    - Oletros 9y ago
      https://elpais.com/diario/2007/07/05/espana/1183586424_850215.html https://elpais.com/diario/2007/07/05/espana/1183586424_85021... http://www.eldiario.es/canariasahora/politica/Estatuto-articulos-impugnados-PP-Cataluna_0_162034516.html http://www.eldiario.es/canariasahora/politica/Estatuto-artic... http://www.jlprieto.es/paradojas-constitucionales-sobre-el-estatuto-de-cataluna-y-el-de-andalucia http://www.jlprieto.es/paradojas-constitucionales-sobre-el-e...

farresito 9y ago

Thank you. It's quite surprising how hard it is for a lot of people to understand this. Listening to the Spanish president say that what's going on in Catalonia is anti-democratic and that democracy is following the constitution is the most frustrating thing you can hear, and I'm surprised people use that argument against the pro-independence movement.

rbanffy 9y ago
Democracy requires the rule of law. The law says the vote should not take place, therefore either the vote doesn't take place or the law (the constitution, in this case) is changed. Politics is the art of the possible. Right now, this is not possible and pushing for it is not constructive.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- farresito 9y ago
  The Spanish constitution is violating one of the basic rights: the right of self-determination. To me, right now, it doesn't matter what the constitution says. We will ignore it. The constitution won't be changed because it's in their interest to not change.
  - notspanishflu 9y ago
    Basic right for whom? Are you talking basic human right? A random bunch of people right? Who? When defining a right, you must show who is the subject of that right.
    - farresito 9y ago
      I'm not completely sure what you are trying to say, but this is what I'm referring to: http://www.unpo.org/article/4957 http://www.unpo.org/article/4957
      - notspanishflu 9y ago
        That's not an impartial source. Anyway, when that site states "All peoples have the right to self-determination" Is there a minimum number of people to aim for 'this right'? V.g. if 259 persons in Els Hostalets de Balenya say the want 'the right to self-determination', are they a nation from then?
        farresito 9y ago
        I answered this same question in another comment. Copy pasting: As to when you stop with the right of self-determination, in the case of Catalonia, from a cultural, language, and historical point of view, there's enough reasons for a referendum to be held (given the discontent of the population). There's a similar situation with Quebec, for example. As far as I know, there's nothing about New York --language, history, or culture-- that would warrant a referendum, and there's certainly no reason for you as an individual to do so (you don't even have the basic political institutions).
        notspanishflu 9y ago
        Responding a copypasta with another copypasta: The so-called "right to self-determination" doesn't exist in the Spanish Constitution, nor in the International Law, nor in Comparative Law. https://elpais.com/elpais/2014/10/10/opinion/1412946101_991126.html https://elpais.com/elpais/2014/10/10/opinion/1412946101_9911...
- unethical_ban 9y ago
  If a supposedly democratic nation banned free speech, then I would proudly break the law. If a sufficient number of people in a geopolitical area wish to govern themselves, broadly, it should be seriously considered by any ethical government.
  - pvaldes 9y ago
    Like in the case of the Islamic State, for example? Hemmm...not.
    - unethical_ban 9y ago
      Like Catalonia, Britain, Scotland, South Sudan, the United States, or India? The circumstances matter. I can't draft a workflow for "ethical independence" on a Friday morning on HN. I can say there is a difference between self-determination and the desire for liberty vs. mass murder, conquering territory and waging guerrilla warfare against multiple nations.
6t6t6t6 9y ago
War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength, Trying to organize a Referendum is Antidemocratic.

notspanishflu 9y ago

There's a legal way to change the Spanish Constitution. What people can't do is play outside the Law in a Democracy.

Oletros 9y ago
> There's a legal way to change the Spanish Constitution. Changing how when the two main parties are against this change? That argument is just an excuse. Articles of the Estatut d'Autonomia where denunced by present the ruling part declared invalid by the TC but that same party wrote carbon copies of them in other Estatutes it say how the situation can change.
- notspanishflu 9y ago
  Oh, I see, the observance of the Law is just an excuse. If you state "that same party wrote carbon copies of them in other Estatutes" you have to give us sources.
  - Oletros 9y ago
    https://elpais.com/diario/2007/07/05/espana/1183586424_850215.html https://elpais.com/diario/2007/07/05/espana/1183586424_85021... http://www.eldiario.es/canariasahora/politica/Estatuto-articulos-impugnados-PP-Cataluna_0_162034516.html http://www.eldiario.es/canariasahora/politica/Estatuto-artic... http://www.jlprieto.es/paradojas-constitucionales-sobre-el-estatuto-de-cataluna-y-el-de-andalucia http://www.jlprieto.es/paradojas-constitucionales-sobre-el-e...