8 ms·

Well, well, well, well... You should read the constitution and compare it to what the catalonian establishment is doing. The rule of law applies also to politi

Well, well, well, well... You should read the constitution and compare it to what the catalonian establishment is doing. The rule of law applies also to politicians.

fra 9y ago
The democracy is weak because of the constitution. It should be amended.
RobertoG 9y ago
is it not the law based on the popular will, theoretically? Because it seems to me that these people are asking to vote.
- notspanishflu 9y ago
  They asking to vote outside the Law, not only European, or Spanish Law, but the Catalan Law too.
iagooar 9y ago
Oh, you are from Gijón. Using the constitution as some sort of shield / holy bible that can't ever possibly be changed IS what show the weakness of Spanish democracy. In the end, governments are there to serve their people. They don't make sense as entities on their own. They represent a group of people who chooses to be represented by their government. If the government attacks the people and refuses to hear to what people have to say, you need to resort to not following the dogma.
- farresito 9y ago
  Thank you. It's quite surprising how hard it is for a lot of people to understand this. Listening to the Spanish president say that what's going on in Catalonia is anti-democratic and that democracy is following the constitution is the most frustrating thing you can hear, and I'm surprised people use that argument against the pro-independence movement.
  - rbanffy 9y ago
    Democracy requires the rule of law. The law says the vote should not take place, therefore either the vote doesn't take place or the law (the constitution, in this case) is changed. Politics is the art of the possible. Right now, this is not possible and pushing for it is not constructive.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - farresito 9y ago
      The Spanish constitution is violating one of the basic rights: the right of self-determination. To me, right now, it doesn't matter what the constitution says. We will ignore it. The constitution won't be changed because it's in their interest to not change.
      - notspanishflu 9y ago
        Basic right for whom? Are you talking basic human right? A random bunch of people right? Who? When defining a right, you must show who is the subject of that right.
        farresito 9y ago
        I'm not completely sure what you are trying to say, but this is what I'm referring to: http://www.unpo.org/article/4957 http://www.unpo.org/article/4957
        notspanishflu 9y ago
        That's not an impartial source. Anyway, when that site states "All peoples have the right to self-determination" Is there a minimum number of people to aim for 'this right'? V.g. if 259 persons in Els Hostalets de Balenya say the want 'the right to self-determination', are they a nation from then?
- notspanishflu 9y ago
  There's a legal way to change the Spanish Constitution. What people can't do is play outside the Law in a Democracy.
  - Oletros 9y ago
    > There's a legal way to change the Spanish Constitution. Changing how when the two main parties are against this change? That argument is just an excuse. Articles of the Estatut d'Autonomia where denunced by present the ruling part declared invalid by the TC but that same party wrote carbon copies of them in other Estatutes it say how the situation can change.
    - notspanishflu 9y ago
      Oh, I see, the observance of the Law is just an excuse. If you state "that same party wrote carbon copies of them in other Estatutes" you have to give us sources.
      - Oletros 9y ago
        https://elpais.com/diario/2007/07/05/espana/1183586424_850215.html https://elpais.com/diario/2007/07/05/espana/1183586424_85021... http://www.eldiario.es/canariasahora/politica/Estatuto-articulos-impugnados-PP-Cataluna_0_162034516.html http://www.eldiario.es/canariasahora/politica/Estatuto-artic... http://www.jlprieto.es/paradojas-constitucionales-sobre-el-estatuto-de-cataluna-y-el-de-andalucia http://www.jlprieto.es/paradojas-constitucionales-sobre-el-e...
tbatchelli 9y ago
That constitution was written and signed under Military watch. Let's not forget Franco, a genocidal dictator, died of old age while still in power, he was not ousted by democratic forces. And no one ever went to jail for the dictatorship. Many in power during the dictatorship remained in power for a long time after it "ended". The current constitution is a reflection of that time, where Spain was a nascent democracy but the military and judiciary (and oligarchies) were still controlled by Franco people. Times change, so do societies, and constitutions can be amended to reflect that. In fact Spain recently amended it's constitution overnight. They could also amend the constitution to allow for a vote, but they don't want to.
- teh_klev 9y ago
  Thank you. People forget, democracy is a process, it doesn't just stop some time in the past.
  - rbanffy 9y ago
    It's a continuous, ongoing process of transforming societies. It's delicate and must be protected and cherished.
- egloeda 9y ago
  "That constitution was written and signed under Military watch." You're just lying. https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refer%C3%A9ndum_para_la_ratificaci%C3%B3n_de_la_Constituci%C3%B3n_espa%C3%B1ola https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refer%C3%A9ndum_para_la_ratifi...
  - icebraining 9y ago
    That link doesn't confirm or deny parent's statement.
- mcdevilkiller 9y ago
  A lot of people were killed under Franco's mandate, but he wasn't genocidal, Hitler was (Jews, Gipsies, etc): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide
farresito 9y ago
If the law goes against one of the principles of democracy, the issue is with the law. What would your opinion be on a constitution that allows slavery? Because that was the case with a lot of constitutions in the past, and I think we would all agree that from a human right's point of view it was wrong. What's going on in Catalonia is illegal, but it's the democratically correct choice, and given what the Spanish government says ("we will only talk as long as it's within the legality"), it's the only thing you can do. For those HN readers that might not know, a decade ago Catalonia tried to pass something known as the Estatut, which would give us more rights and more power (similar to what the Basque country has had for a long time). Needless to say, it didn't pass because the big parties opposed to it. One of the two important political parties in Spain (the Popular party) went as far as going around Spain collecting signatures (four million) to get rid of the Estatut. And that's part of the story of how the pro-independence movement gained as much traction as it has right now.
- notspanishflu 9y ago
  Sure? The current situation doesn't have anything to do with Pujol family being close to go to jail for corruption? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordi_Pujol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordi_Pujol
  - farresito 9y ago
    I have no idea what point you are trying to make. We are not talking about corruption here; we are talking about the right of self-determination.
    - notspanishflu 9y ago
      Yeah, and you feel so powerful downvoting everyone who doesn't aligned with your political strategy. I bet you are all for dialog, good arguments, better talk than fight... /s
      - farresito 9y ago
tomjen3 9y ago
Oh it probably violates the constitution - but the right thing to do is to either let it slide or admend it. The law is supposed to serve the people, right now Spain is just using it as a bully platform.
- notspanishflu 9y ago
  No, if someone wants to change the Spanish Constitution, there's a legal way to do it.

Well, well, well, well... You should read the constitution and compare it to what the catalonian establishment is doing. The rule of law applies also to politicians.

fra 9y ago

The democracy is weak because of the constitution. It should be amended.

RobertoG 9y ago

is it not the law based on the popular will, theoretically? Because it seems to me that these people are asking to vote.

notspanishflu 9y ago
They asking to vote outside the Law, not only European, or Spanish Law, but the Catalan Law too.

iagooar 9y ago

Oh, you are from Gijón. Using the constitution as some sort of shield / holy bible that can't ever possibly be changed IS what show the weakness of Spanish democracy. In the end, governments are there to serve their people. They don't make sense as entities on their own. They represent a group of people who chooses to be represented by their government. If the government attacks the people and refuses to hear to what people have to say, you need to resort to not following the dogma.

farresito 9y ago
Thank you. It's quite surprising how hard it is for a lot of people to understand this. Listening to the Spanish president say that what's going on in Catalonia is anti-democratic and that democracy is following the constitution is the most frustrating thing you can hear, and I'm surprised people use that argument against the pro-independence movement.
- rbanffy 9y ago
  Democracy requires the rule of law. The law says the vote should not take place, therefore either the vote doesn't take place or the law (the constitution, in this case) is changed. Politics is the art of the possible. Right now, this is not possible and pushing for it is not constructive.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - farresito 9y ago
    The Spanish constitution is violating one of the basic rights: the right of self-determination. To me, right now, it doesn't matter what the constitution says. We will ignore it. The constitution won't be changed because it's in their interest to not change.
    - notspanishflu 9y ago
      Basic right for whom? Are you talking basic human right? A random bunch of people right? Who? When defining a right, you must show who is the subject of that right.
      - farresito 9y ago
        I'm not completely sure what you are trying to say, but this is what I'm referring to: http://www.unpo.org/article/4957 http://www.unpo.org/article/4957
        notspanishflu 9y ago
        That's not an impartial source. Anyway, when that site states "All peoples have the right to self-determination" Is there a minimum number of people to aim for 'this right'? V.g. if 259 persons in Els Hostalets de Balenya say the want 'the right to self-determination', are they a nation from then?
notspanishflu 9y ago
There's a legal way to change the Spanish Constitution. What people can't do is play outside the Law in a Democracy.
- Oletros 9y ago
  > There's a legal way to change the Spanish Constitution. Changing how when the two main parties are against this change? That argument is just an excuse. Articles of the Estatut d'Autonomia where denunced by present the ruling part declared invalid by the TC but that same party wrote carbon copies of them in other Estatutes it say how the situation can change.
  - notspanishflu 9y ago
    Oh, I see, the observance of the Law is just an excuse. If you state "that same party wrote carbon copies of them in other Estatutes" you have to give us sources.
    - Oletros 9y ago
      https://elpais.com/diario/2007/07/05/espana/1183586424_850215.html https://elpais.com/diario/2007/07/05/espana/1183586424_85021... http://www.eldiario.es/canariasahora/politica/Estatuto-articulos-impugnados-PP-Cataluna_0_162034516.html http://www.eldiario.es/canariasahora/politica/Estatuto-artic... http://www.jlprieto.es/paradojas-constitucionales-sobre-el-estatuto-de-cataluna-y-el-de-andalucia http://www.jlprieto.es/paradojas-constitucionales-sobre-el-e...

tbatchelli 9y ago

That constitution was written and signed under Military watch. Let's not forget Franco, a genocidal dictator, died of old age while still in power, he was not ousted by democratic forces. And no one ever went to jail for the dictatorship. Many in power during the dictatorship remained in power for a long time after it "ended". The current constitution is a reflection of that time, where Spain was a nascent democracy but the military and judiciary (and oligarchies) were still controlled by Franco people. Times change, so do societies, and constitutions can be amended to reflect that. In fact Spain recently amended it's constitution overnight. They could also amend the constitution to allow for a vote, but they don't want to.

teh_klev 9y ago
Thank you. People forget, democracy is a process, it doesn't just stop some time in the past.
- rbanffy 9y ago
  It's a continuous, ongoing process of transforming societies. It's delicate and must be protected and cherished.
egloeda 9y ago
"That constitution was written and signed under Military watch." You're just lying. https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refer%C3%A9ndum_para_la_ratificaci%C3%B3n_de_la_Constituci%C3%B3n_espa%C3%B1ola https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refer%C3%A9ndum_para_la_ratifi...
- icebraining 9y ago
  That link doesn't confirm or deny parent's statement.
mcdevilkiller 9y ago
A lot of people were killed under Franco's mandate, but he wasn't genocidal, Hitler was (Jews, Gipsies, etc): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide

farresito 9y ago

If the law goes against one of the principles of democracy, the issue is with the law. What would your opinion be on a constitution that allows slavery? Because that was the case with a lot of constitutions in the past, and I think we would all agree that from a human right's point of view it was wrong. What's going on in Catalonia is illegal, but it's the democratically correct choice, and given what the Spanish government says ("we will only talk as long as it's within the legality"), it's the only thing you can do. For those HN readers that might not know, a decade ago Catalonia tried to pass something known as the Estatut, which would give us more rights and more power (similar to what the Basque country has had for a long time). Needless to say, it didn't pass because the big parties opposed to it. One of the two important political parties in Spain (the Popular party) went as far as going around Spain collecting signatures (four million) to get rid of the Estatut. And that's part of the story of how the pro-independence movement gained as much traction as it has right now.

notspanishflu 9y ago
Sure? The current situation doesn't have anything to do with Pujol family being close to go to jail for corruption? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordi_Pujol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordi_Pujol
- farresito 9y ago
  I have no idea what point you are trying to make. We are not talking about corruption here; we are talking about the right of self-determination.
  - notspanishflu 9y ago
    Yeah, and you feel so powerful downvoting everyone who doesn't aligned with your political strategy. I bet you are all for dialog, good arguments, better talk than fight... /s
    - farresito 9y ago

tomjen3 9y ago

Oh it probably violates the constitution - but the right thing to do is to either let it slide or admend it. The law is supposed to serve the people, right now Spain is just using it as a bully platform.

notspanishflu 9y ago
No, if someone wants to change the Spanish Constitution, there's a legal way to do it.