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That does not answer the question of what women will do with their lives. Women who have been socialized their entire life to pick up after others and cook for

by Mz 9y ago

That does not answer the question of what women will do with their lives. Women who have been socialized their entire life to pick up after others and cook for them and take care of them don't readily have a path forward for how to spend their time constructively. The logical outcome is that many women wind up with paid jobs that mimic the wife and mom role. But paid jobs that involve, for example, cleaning up after others tend to be shit jobs that no one actually aspires to. People do not typically dream of being the maid. I was a homemaker and full time mom. I also was an excellent student. I have found it quite challenging to develop a serious career. I feel strongly that gender expectations are a big factor in that problem. So, it is a thing I think about a lot. I agree that there is nothing inherently wrong with having a useful mental model for "this is how to act." But I think we face substantial challenges in teasing out how to separate masculine and feminine expression from the raft load of problems that cause the trend known as the feminization of poverty.

microcolonel 9y ago
> I agree that there is nothing inherently wrong with having a useful mental model for "this is how to act." But I think we face substantial challenges in teasing out how to separate masculine and feminine expression from the raft load of problems that cause the trend known as the feminization of poverty. Yeah, among the elderly, marital status is the largest determining factor in poverty rates; and among the unmarried elderly, sex is the next major factor [0]. That said, I don't see a trend in the data I've seen on this, but that could just be for lack of samples. I will say that this definitely touches on your earlier comment (which I'll quote) > Even if a woman marries well, after her kids are grown, there are very real problems for her and other people to expect her to remain confined to certain caretaking roles. This is basically the conclusion of a major, life-altering decision. Option a) Optimize for "feminine" roles, be able to have and raise kids in an optimal manner, and attach yourself to your husband's naturally greater earning role so that you can maintain your lifestyle into old age. Option b) Optimize for general/economic roles, choose a difficult and time consuming career which nobody else will appreciate you for, because you may not have a family in your 30s to care about how much you earn. Live out the rest of your days on your own dollar (albeit with nobody around who wants you to cook for them or support them emotionally, which even to me as a [fairly young] man who cooks for others seems kinda lonely). Statistically speaking, this route goes poorly for both sexes, but especially poorly for women (that "never married" category on the SSA fact sheet). At a glance, it seems unfair that these are the two main choices for women, but I don't see how you could expect much different. The difference can be largely attributed to the unique maternal relationship, and the fact that it is a career in itself. The uniquely paternal part of child rearing is more of a job than a career, and part of the gig is to have other work anyhow. It seems like a very difficult decision, and I sympathize with it. Young and foolish as I am, I think that if I had a straight daughter, she has a better chance of achieving a likely life goal (having [a] kid[s]) and remaining above the poverty line if she is at least well equipped for the "feminine" role. I would have no trouble encouraging her to work on that while also getting a proper professional education. [0]: https://www.ssa.gov/retirementpolicy/fact-sheets/marital-status-poverty.html https://www.ssa.gov/retirementpolicy/fact-sheets/marital-sta...
- Mz 9y ago
  I wrote a really long reply and I liked it enough that I decided it belonged on my blog instead. You can see it here: http://michelerebooted.blogspot.com/2017/09/unmarried-bitches-don-deserve-to-eat.html http://michelerebooted.blogspot.com/2017/09/unmarried-bitche... Thank you for engaging me in good faith. A meaty debate or discussion with someone who is not being an asshole about it is always a good thing and, sadly, not very common.
  - microcolonel 9y ago
    Just to be clear, I do not agree with the title as a concept. I would like it if you avoid associating me with that statement. I deliberately avoid speaking on what people "deserve" or "don't deserve". I make an effort to avoid ascribing moral categories like "bitches" based on people's personal lifestyle preferences. I'm glad to have had a conversation in good faith on this matter, but associating me with the disgusting statement "unmarried bitches don't deserve to eat" is a manifest breach of good faith.
    - Mz 9y ago
      There was no intent to associate you with anything. Your statement here will have to be sufficient for clearing up any concerns about that matter. I am not going to change the title of the post. I was homeless for nearly six years. I got off the street earlier this month. I was quite open on the internet about my struggles in trying to figure out how to come up with enough earned income to eat. It garnered me damn little sympathy or support and there were an awful lot of people who were quite ugly to me and accused me of things like trying to panhandle the internet. If the title makes people uncomfortable, well, that is the intention. Maybe you should stop and reconsider your view that gender roles are no problem if you feel so deeply offended by having it put baldly to you that a position that it is fine for women to be groomed to be a wife (from birth) is one that actively makes it difficult for most women to meet their basic needs at some point in their life. Adieu.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]

by Mz 9y ago

microcolonel 9y ago

> I agree that there is nothing inherently wrong with having a useful mental model for "this is how to act." But I think we face substantial challenges in teasing out how to separate masculine and feminine expression from the raft load of problems that cause the trend known as the feminization of poverty. Yeah, among the elderly, marital status is the largest determining factor in poverty rates; and among the unmarried elderly, sex is the next major factor [0]. That said, I don't see a trend in the data I've seen on this, but that could just be for lack of samples. I will say that this definitely touches on your earlier comment (which I'll quote) > Even if a woman marries well, after her kids are grown, there are very real problems for her and other people to expect her to remain confined to certain caretaking roles. This is basically the conclusion of a major, life-altering decision. Option a) Optimize for "feminine" roles, be able to have and raise kids in an optimal manner, and attach yourself to your husband's naturally greater earning role so that you can maintain your lifestyle into old age. Option b) Optimize for general/economic roles, choose a difficult and time consuming career which nobody else will appreciate you for, because you may not have a family in your 30s to care about how much you earn. Live out the rest of your days on your own dollar (albeit with nobody around who wants you to cook for them or support them emotionally, which even to me as a [fairly young] man who cooks for others seems kinda lonely). Statistically speaking, this route goes poorly for both sexes, but especially poorly for women (that "never married" category on the SSA fact sheet). At a glance, it seems unfair that these are the two main choices for women, but I don't see how you could expect much different. The difference can be largely attributed to the unique maternal relationship, and the fact that it is a career in itself. The uniquely paternal part of child rearing is more of a job than a career, and part of the gig is to have other work anyhow. It seems like a very difficult decision, and I sympathize with it. Young and foolish as I am, I think that if I had a straight daughter, she has a better chance of achieving a likely life goal (having [a] kid[s]) and remaining above the poverty line if she is at least well equipped for the "feminine" role. I would have no trouble encouraging her to work on that while also getting a proper professional education. [0]: https://www.ssa.gov/retirementpolicy/fact-sheets/marital-status-poverty.html https://www.ssa.gov/retirementpolicy/fact-sheets/marital-sta...

Mz 9y ago
I wrote a really long reply and I liked it enough that I decided it belonged on my blog instead. You can see it here: http://michelerebooted.blogspot.com/2017/09/unmarried-bitches-don-deserve-to-eat.html http://michelerebooted.blogspot.com/2017/09/unmarried-bitche... Thank you for engaging me in good faith. A meaty debate or discussion with someone who is not being an asshole about it is always a good thing and, sadly, not very common.
- microcolonel 9y ago
  Just to be clear, I do not agree with the title as a concept. I would like it if you avoid associating me with that statement. I deliberately avoid speaking on what people "deserve" or "don't deserve". I make an effort to avoid ascribing moral categories like "bitches" based on people's personal lifestyle preferences. I'm glad to have had a conversation in good faith on this matter, but associating me with the disgusting statement "unmarried bitches don't deserve to eat" is a manifest breach of good faith.
  - Mz 9y ago
    There was no intent to associate you with anything. Your statement here will have to be sufficient for clearing up any concerns about that matter. I am not going to change the title of the post. I was homeless for nearly six years. I got off the street earlier this month. I was quite open on the internet about my struggles in trying to figure out how to come up with enough earned income to eat. It garnered me damn little sympathy or support and there were an awful lot of people who were quite ugly to me and accused me of things like trying to panhandle the internet. If the title makes people uncomfortable, well, that is the intention. Maybe you should stop and reconsider your view that gender roles are no problem if you feel so deeply offended by having it put baldly to you that a position that it is fine for women to be groomed to be a wife (from birth) is one that actively makes it difficult for most women to meet their basic needs at some point in their life. Adieu.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]