4 ms·

This has very little to do with internet freedom etc; Catalonia has threatened to leave Spain via a referendum. There are very few things countries will not do

This has very little to do with internet freedom etc; Catalonia has threatened to leave Spain via a referendum. There are very few things countries will not do to keep the country together. Think of "war on terror" on steroids.

dogma1138 9y ago
Yes just like England carpetbombed Glasgo to stop the Scottish referendum. /s
- tryingagainbro 9y ago
  Can I mention a few counterexamples? I guess no need to because you know. Yeah in 2017 some things are no longer accepted in the heart of Europe but Yugoslavia, Ukraine etc are recent examples. IIRC, you have the right to leave in peace, use your language, autonomy and not be discriminated but declaring independence is quite a few steps above that.
  - whatshisface 9y ago
    However, freedom of speech is an inalienable human right (and in need of most protection when it's political speech) - so regardless of whether you think that government's power derives from the people, they should be allowed to talk about the referendum.
    - notspanishflu 9y ago
      Everybody can speak about the referendum in Spain. You can't say there isn't freedom of speech in Spain when even people convicted for terrorism speaks in public media everyday.
      - justin66 9y ago
        You do realize that the subject matter of the article this thread is about involves free speech, right? Spanish authorities asked the registry to block domain names that were being used to spread information about an upcoming referendum for independence. I can understand why the opposition would be pretty pissed off about that infringement on their free speech rights.
        notspanishflu 9y ago
        That's illegal propaganda, not free-speech.
        justin66 9y ago
        It might or might not be of interest, but there's a pretty profound difference between your attitude and the attitude of an American, and the approach of American constitutional law. Political speech, which is broadly defined, is the most highly protected sort of speech we have under our constitution. But maybe you were joking or something. Saying "Everybody can speak about the referendum in Spain" and then immediately contradicting yourself is ironic.
  - kiliancs 9y ago
    Self-determination of peoples is a jus cogens law and a cardinal principle in international law. It's part of the UN's Charter and it's enshrined in many international treaties subscribed by Spain and by the European Union. For years Catalonia has formally requested for this right to be exercised in different ways, and the Spanish government has made every effort to stop any possible way to channel this right. This has continued until today, when the Spanish militarized police has raided the Catalan institutions and arrested members of the Catalan government that was elected with the mandate to let Catalans exercise this right in spite of the official Spanish position, which it's trying to do through a referendum where both positions in favor and against independence may have equal opportunities to be heard. Spain has always defended that this right to self-determination is confined to colonies because it would otherwise conflict with the also very important principle of territorial integrity. However, the International Court of Justice explained in its Advisory Opinion of 22 July 2010 regarding the case of Kosovo that “the scope of the principle of territorial integrity is confined to the sphere of relations between States”. Thus, even unilateral declarations of independence do not conflict with the aforementioned principle: “general international law contains no applicable prohibition of declarations of independence“.[0] [0] http://www.icj-cij.org/files/case-related/141/16010.pdf http://www.icj-cij.org/files/case-related/141/16010.pdf
    - tryingagainbro 9y ago
      “general international law contains no applicable prohibition of declarations of independence“ Sure, you can declare all day but who will recognize you and if it's "illegal" in the country you want to leave, you will be jailed. If they do the ethnic cleansing that Serbia did in Kosovo then, you may have a better chance internationally. Changing of borders is frowned upon, almost every country has their own issues.
  - Markoff 9y ago
    what about Ukraine? laat time I checked they were invaded by Russia, not much to do with some free will of local citizens through some official referendum
    - tryingagainbro 9y ago
      I am 300% sure that some Ukrainian regions want to become "independent," or part of Russia. http://edition.cnn.com/2014/05/12/world/europe/ukraine-crisis/index.html http://edition.cnn.com/2014/05/12/world/europe/ukraine-crisi... In fact, Russia is "protecting their rights" not invading Ukraine or something like that. Once again, if 100% of your human rights can be exercised with broad autonomy, no sane country will support your independence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_separatist_movements_in_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_separatist_move...

dogma1138 9y ago

Yes just like England carpetbombed Glasgo to stop the Scottish referendum. /s

tryingagainbro 9y ago
Can I mention a few counterexamples? I guess no need to because you know. Yeah in 2017 some things are no longer accepted in the heart of Europe but Yugoslavia, Ukraine etc are recent examples. IIRC, you have the right to leave in peace, use your language, autonomy and not be discriminated but declaring independence is quite a few steps above that.
- whatshisface 9y ago
  However, freedom of speech is an inalienable human right (and in need of most protection when it's political speech) - so regardless of whether you think that government's power derives from the people, they should be allowed to talk about the referendum.
  - notspanishflu 9y ago
    Everybody can speak about the referendum in Spain. You can't say there isn't freedom of speech in Spain when even people convicted for terrorism speaks in public media everyday.
    - justin66 9y ago
      You do realize that the subject matter of the article this thread is about involves free speech, right? Spanish authorities asked the registry to block domain names that were being used to spread information about an upcoming referendum for independence. I can understand why the opposition would be pretty pissed off about that infringement on their free speech rights.
      - notspanishflu 9y ago
        That's illegal propaganda, not free-speech.
        justin66 9y ago
        It might or might not be of interest, but there's a pretty profound difference between your attitude and the attitude of an American, and the approach of American constitutional law. Political speech, which is broadly defined, is the most highly protected sort of speech we have under our constitution. But maybe you were joking or something. Saying "Everybody can speak about the referendum in Spain" and then immediately contradicting yourself is ironic.
- kiliancs 9y ago
  Self-determination of peoples is a jus cogens law and a cardinal principle in international law. It's part of the UN's Charter and it's enshrined in many international treaties subscribed by Spain and by the European Union. For years Catalonia has formally requested for this right to be exercised in different ways, and the Spanish government has made every effort to stop any possible way to channel this right. This has continued until today, when the Spanish militarized police has raided the Catalan institutions and arrested members of the Catalan government that was elected with the mandate to let Catalans exercise this right in spite of the official Spanish position, which it's trying to do through a referendum where both positions in favor and against independence may have equal opportunities to be heard. Spain has always defended that this right to self-determination is confined to colonies because it would otherwise conflict with the also very important principle of territorial integrity. However, the International Court of Justice explained in its Advisory Opinion of 22 July 2010 regarding the case of Kosovo that “the scope of the principle of territorial integrity is confined to the sphere of relations between States”. Thus, even unilateral declarations of independence do not conflict with the aforementioned principle: “general international law contains no applicable prohibition of declarations of independence“.[0] [0] http://www.icj-cij.org/files/case-related/141/16010.pdf http://www.icj-cij.org/files/case-related/141/16010.pdf
  - tryingagainbro 9y ago
    “general international law contains no applicable prohibition of declarations of independence“ Sure, you can declare all day but who will recognize you and if it's "illegal" in the country you want to leave, you will be jailed. If they do the ethnic cleansing that Serbia did in Kosovo then, you may have a better chance internationally. Changing of borders is frowned upon, almost every country has their own issues.
- Markoff 9y ago
  what about Ukraine? laat time I checked they were invaded by Russia, not much to do with some free will of local citizens through some official referendum
  - tryingagainbro 9y ago
    I am 300% sure that some Ukrainian regions want to become "independent," or part of Russia. http://edition.cnn.com/2014/05/12/world/europe/ukraine-crisis/index.html http://edition.cnn.com/2014/05/12/world/europe/ukraine-crisi... In fact, Russia is "protecting their rights" not invading Ukraine or something like that. Once again, if 100% of your human rights can be exercised with broad autonomy, no sane country will support your independence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_separatist_movements_in_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_separatist_move...