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You are cherry picking. In social settings where gender roles are pretty strictly enforced, men are actively discouraged from learning to cook. It is "women's w

by Mz 9y ago

You are cherry picking. In social settings where gender roles are pretty strictly enforced, men are actively discouraged from learning to cook. It is "women's work." Also, while I generally agree that a stable, healthy marriage is best for raising kids, one of the problems here is that people are living longer and having fewer children. Even if a woman marries well, after her kids are grown, there are very real problems for her and other people to expect her to remain confined to certain caretaking roles. The fact that people are living longer and child mortality rates are down inherently creates social pressure to handle things differently than in the past. I think you only escape this by erasing a great deal of progress that led to both of these positive outcomes.

microcolonel 9y ago
> You are cherry picking. In social settings where gender roles are pretty strictly enforced, men are actively discouraged from learning to cook. It is "women's work." Fair enough, I would not advocate for nifty fifties or rural Iraq style forcible/near-forcible gender roles. The extent to which force is involved is the extent to which they are wrong. If you take force out of the equation, you get a useful mental model; put force in, and you get a repressive system. > The fact that people are living longer and child mortality rates are down inherently creates social pressure to handle things differently than in the past. This is definitely true, but it seems this question is already answered for us: people continue to want to have kids at nearly the same rate (after the initial decline), but typically trend toward or below the replacement rate in terms of the typical number of children per household.
- Mz 9y ago
  That does not answer the question of what women will do with their lives. Women who have been socialized their entire life to pick up after others and cook for them and take care of them don't readily have a path forward for how to spend their time constructively. The logical outcome is that many women wind up with paid jobs that mimic the wife and mom role. But paid jobs that involve, for example, cleaning up after others tend to be shit jobs that no one actually aspires to. People do not typically dream of being the maid. I was a homemaker and full time mom. I also was an excellent student. I have found it quite challenging to develop a serious career. I feel strongly that gender expectations are a big factor in that problem. So, it is a thing I think about a lot. I agree that there is nothing inherently wrong with having a useful mental model for "this is how to act." But I think we face substantial challenges in teasing out how to separate masculine and feminine expression from the raft load of problems that cause the trend known as the feminization of poverty.
  - microcolonel 9y ago
    > I agree that there is nothing inherently wrong with having a useful mental model for "this is how to act." But I think we face substantial challenges in teasing out how to separate masculine and feminine expression from the raft load of problems that cause the trend known as the feminization of poverty. Yeah, among the elderly, marital status is the largest determining factor in poverty rates; and among the unmarried elderly, sex is the next major factor [0]. That said, I don't see a trend in the data I've seen on this, but that could just be for lack of samples. I will say that this definitely touches on your earlier comment (which I'll quote) > Even if a woman marries well, after her kids are grown, there are very real problems for her and other people to expect her to remain confined to certain caretaking roles. This is basically the conclusion of a major, life-altering decision. Option a) Optimize for "feminine" roles, be able to have and raise kids in an optimal manner, and attach yourself to your husband's naturally greater earning role so that you can maintain your lifestyle into old age. Option b) Optimize for general/economic roles, choose a difficult and time consuming career which nobody else will appreciate you for, because you may not have a family in your 30s to care about how much you earn. Live out the rest of your days on your own dollar (albeit with nobody around who wants you to cook for them or support them emotionally, which even to me as a [fairly young] man who cooks for others seems kinda lonely). Statistically speaking, this route goes poorly for both sexes, but especially poorly for women (that "never married" category on the SSA fact sheet). At a glance, it seems unfair that these are the two main choices for women, but I don't see how you could expect much different. The difference can be largely attributed to the unique maternal relationship, and the fact that it is a career in itself. The uniquely paternal part of child rearing is more of a job than a career, and part of the gig is to have other work anyhow. It seems like a very difficult decision, and I sympathize with it. Young and foolish as I am, I think that if I had a straight daughter, she has a better chance of achieving a likely life goal (having [a] kid[s]) and remaining above the poverty line if she is at least well equipped for the "feminine" role. I would have no trouble encouraging her to work on that while also getting a proper professional education. [0]: https://www.ssa.gov/retirementpolicy/fact-sheets/marital-status-poverty.html https://www.ssa.gov/retirementpolicy/fact-sheets/marital-sta...
    - Mz 9y ago

by Mz 9y ago

microcolonel 9y ago

> You are cherry picking. In social settings where gender roles are pretty strictly enforced, men are actively discouraged from learning to cook. It is "women's work." Fair enough, I would not advocate for nifty fifties or rural Iraq style forcible/near-forcible gender roles. The extent to which force is involved is the extent to which they are wrong. If you take force out of the equation, you get a useful mental model; put force in, and you get a repressive system. > The fact that people are living longer and child mortality rates are down inherently creates social pressure to handle things differently than in the past. This is definitely true, but it seems this question is already answered for us: people continue to want to have kids at nearly the same rate (after the initial decline), but typically trend toward or below the replacement rate in terms of the typical number of children per household.

Mz 9y ago
That does not answer the question of what women will do with their lives. Women who have been socialized their entire life to pick up after others and cook for them and take care of them don't readily have a path forward for how to spend their time constructively. The logical outcome is that many women wind up with paid jobs that mimic the wife and mom role. But paid jobs that involve, for example, cleaning up after others tend to be shit jobs that no one actually aspires to. People do not typically dream of being the maid. I was a homemaker and full time mom. I also was an excellent student. I have found it quite challenging to develop a serious career. I feel strongly that gender expectations are a big factor in that problem. So, it is a thing I think about a lot. I agree that there is nothing inherently wrong with having a useful mental model for "this is how to act." But I think we face substantial challenges in teasing out how to separate masculine and feminine expression from the raft load of problems that cause the trend known as the feminization of poverty.
- microcolonel 9y ago
  > I agree that there is nothing inherently wrong with having a useful mental model for "this is how to act." But I think we face substantial challenges in teasing out how to separate masculine and feminine expression from the raft load of problems that cause the trend known as the feminization of poverty. Yeah, among the elderly, marital status is the largest determining factor in poverty rates; and among the unmarried elderly, sex is the next major factor [0]. That said, I don't see a trend in the data I've seen on this, but that could just be for lack of samples. I will say that this definitely touches on your earlier comment (which I'll quote) > Even if a woman marries well, after her kids are grown, there are very real problems for her and other people to expect her to remain confined to certain caretaking roles. This is basically the conclusion of a major, life-altering decision. Option a) Optimize for "feminine" roles, be able to have and raise kids in an optimal manner, and attach yourself to your husband's naturally greater earning role so that you can maintain your lifestyle into old age. Option b) Optimize for general/economic roles, choose a difficult and time consuming career which nobody else will appreciate you for, because you may not have a family in your 30s to care about how much you earn. Live out the rest of your days on your own dollar (albeit with nobody around who wants you to cook for them or support them emotionally, which even to me as a [fairly young] man who cooks for others seems kinda lonely). Statistically speaking, this route goes poorly for both sexes, but especially poorly for women (that "never married" category on the SSA fact sheet). At a glance, it seems unfair that these are the two main choices for women, but I don't see how you could expect much different. The difference can be largely attributed to the unique maternal relationship, and the fact that it is a career in itself. The uniquely paternal part of child rearing is more of a job than a career, and part of the gig is to have other work anyhow. It seems like a very difficult decision, and I sympathize with it. Young and foolish as I am, I think that if I had a straight daughter, she has a better chance of achieving a likely life goal (having [a] kid[s]) and remaining above the poverty line if she is at least well equipped for the "feminine" role. I would have no trouble encouraging her to work on that while also getting a proper professional education. [0]: https://www.ssa.gov/retirementpolicy/fact-sheets/marital-status-poverty.html https://www.ssa.gov/retirementpolicy/fact-sheets/marital-sta...
  - Mz 9y ago