5 ms·

Regardless of what you think of people identifying as muffins(??), it's pretty unreasonable to equate such a flight of fancy with transgender people. There's a

by chc 9y ago

Regardless of what you think of people identifying as muffins(??), it's pretty unreasonable to equate such a flight of fancy with transgender people. There's a growing pile of evidence (such as the OP) that mental perception of gender is at least partly biologically based and independent of outward presentation, and twin studies suggest that whatever causes identification as transgender similarly has a biological basis (identical twins are more likely to both be transgender than fraternal twins are). So it doesn't seem like transgender people are saying "everything is made up" — they're probably accurately describing a real phenomenon.

freeflight 9y ago
> Regardless of what you think of people identifying as muffins(??), it's pretty unreasonable to equate such a flight of fancy with transgender people. It's not me doing that equation, that equation happened when you pick up the banner of "identity politics" and all kinds of weird folks rally under it to celebrate how weird they are. [0] > There's a growing pile of evidence (such as the OP) that mental perception of gender is at least partly biologically based and independent of outward presentation The OP, while being mostly anecdotal, is pretty much evidence that this whole "gender is 100% a social construct!" idea can't be the full story. These biological boys were misgendered by society, as a result society educated and treated them like girls, yet the boy from the story turned out to be.. a boy and feeling just like that. If anything it's evidence for the exact opposite of "gender is a social construct". > So it doesn't seem like transgender people are saying "everything is made up" — they're probably accurately describing a real phenomenon. Actual transgender people, with mismatching biological gender and brain chemistry, most likely are nowhere near as prevalent as some circles pretend. While it is an issue that society should come to a resolution about how to deal with, I fail to see why it became one of the cornerstones of a whole political movement. It seems like in doing so, the left has gotten a lot of bycatch in the form of mentally ill people suddenly having a justification for why they are not "mentally ill" but rather it's society's fault for not accepting them for their mental illness. This might sound harsh, but I'm saying this as somebody with mental health issues himself who knows very well how difficult it can be to "fit in" and the doubts about if one should actually aspire to "fit in" or instead simply declare one owns "oddness" as a character trait and run with it. It's not easy and imho everybody has to deal with this to a certain degree, regardless of how "normal" or "odd" they are, it's simply part of the experience of living as an individual in any society. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSMEtfqAdmM&list=PLjBnqlVZLi4HqsBl5sOvjdcME3baYHcc1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSMEtfqAdmM&list=PLjBnqlVZLi...
- chc 9y ago
  As far as I can tell, nobody in this thread "picked up the banner of identity politics," and I can't find anyone arguing that "gender is 100% a social construct" either. Those seem to have been brought up exclusively as an out-of-left-field criticism of transgender people. What I'm saying is, at least in the context of this thread, it seems like a straw man argument that associates the idea "transgender people are real" with other ideas that literally nobody here is claiming. I agree there probably aren't that many transgender people, but the best estimates I've seen suggest that there are probably a little over a million in the US. It is a tiny fraction of the US population — less than half a percent — but on the other hand, cities with that many people are considered a pretty big deal. It seems like an issue worth considering — not the cornerstone of a political movement, sure, but I don't think it is the cornerstone of one, unless you're considering "trans rights" as a political movement of its own (in which case, that's kind of tautological).
  - freeflight 9y ago
    > As far as I can tell, nobody in this thread "picked up the banner of identity politics," and I can't find anyone arguing that "gender is 100% a social construct" either. Those seem to have been brought up exclusively as an out-of-left-field criticism of transgender people. Where did I criticize "transgender people"? I merely pointed out how identity politics, which is not just about transgender people but covers a whole field of people, has been pretty much been the sole focus of "leftist social politics". Probably because there ain't actually that much left it could pick up to rally behind, which in itself is already a success. Nothing of what I said was intended as a direct reply to people making claims here, but rather as a discussion of the general phenomena which does include the claim of "gender is a social construct" but also includes plenty of people who normalize mental illness in the course of said discussion. Look, my goal is not to make people who don't fit the mold "undesirable", this isn't an especially easy topic to discuss because there are no clear-cut answers and it can be very touchy for some people. Somewhere in there, there is a very valid issue hidden of how do we deal with mental health issues. Do we consider them part of the course and accept people living with them affecting everybody around them? Do we consider them "broken" and "not compatible with society" and try to change their personality? These issues seep into the general issues of psychology and sociology not being very hard sciences, so science can't give us any clear answers about what to do. In that regard, I find it disingenuous how the left, with the help of gender studies, tries to construct a consensus that ain't there and most likely won't be there for the foreseeable future.

by chc 9y ago

freeflight 9y ago

> Regardless of what you think of people identifying as muffins(??), it's pretty unreasonable to equate such a flight of fancy with transgender people. It's not me doing that equation, that equation happened when you pick up the banner of "identity politics" and all kinds of weird folks rally under it to celebrate how weird they are. [0] > There's a growing pile of evidence (such as the OP) that mental perception of gender is at least partly biologically based and independent of outward presentation The OP, while being mostly anecdotal, is pretty much evidence that this whole "gender is 100% a social construct!" idea can't be the full story. These biological boys were misgendered by society, as a result society educated and treated them like girls, yet the boy from the story turned out to be.. a boy and feeling just like that. If anything it's evidence for the exact opposite of "gender is a social construct". > So it doesn't seem like transgender people are saying "everything is made up" — they're probably accurately describing a real phenomenon. Actual transgender people, with mismatching biological gender and brain chemistry, most likely are nowhere near as prevalent as some circles pretend. While it is an issue that society should come to a resolution about how to deal with, I fail to see why it became one of the cornerstones of a whole political movement. It seems like in doing so, the left has gotten a lot of bycatch in the form of mentally ill people suddenly having a justification for why they are not "mentally ill" but rather it's society's fault for not accepting them for their mental illness. This might sound harsh, but I'm saying this as somebody with mental health issues himself who knows very well how difficult it can be to "fit in" and the doubts about if one should actually aspire to "fit in" or instead simply declare one owns "oddness" as a character trait and run with it. It's not easy and imho everybody has to deal with this to a certain degree, regardless of how "normal" or "odd" they are, it's simply part of the experience of living as an individual in any society. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSMEtfqAdmM&list=PLjBnqlVZLi4HqsBl5sOvjdcME3baYHcc1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSMEtfqAdmM&list=PLjBnqlVZLi...

chc 9y ago
As far as I can tell, nobody in this thread "picked up the banner of identity politics," and I can't find anyone arguing that "gender is 100% a social construct" either. Those seem to have been brought up exclusively as an out-of-left-field criticism of transgender people. What I'm saying is, at least in the context of this thread, it seems like a straw man argument that associates the idea "transgender people are real" with other ideas that literally nobody here is claiming. I agree there probably aren't that many transgender people, but the best estimates I've seen suggest that there are probably a little over a million in the US. It is a tiny fraction of the US population — less than half a percent — but on the other hand, cities with that many people are considered a pretty big deal. It seems like an issue worth considering — not the cornerstone of a political movement, sure, but I don't think it is the cornerstone of one, unless you're considering "trans rights" as a political movement of its own (in which case, that's kind of tautological).
- freeflight 9y ago
  > As far as I can tell, nobody in this thread "picked up the banner of identity politics," and I can't find anyone arguing that "gender is 100% a social construct" either. Those seem to have been brought up exclusively as an out-of-left-field criticism of transgender people. Where did I criticize "transgender people"? I merely pointed out how identity politics, which is not just about transgender people but covers a whole field of people, has been pretty much been the sole focus of "leftist social politics". Probably because there ain't actually that much left it could pick up to rally behind, which in itself is already a success. Nothing of what I said was intended as a direct reply to people making claims here, but rather as a discussion of the general phenomena which does include the claim of "gender is a social construct" but also includes plenty of people who normalize mental illness in the course of said discussion. Look, my goal is not to make people who don't fit the mold "undesirable", this isn't an especially easy topic to discuss because there are no clear-cut answers and it can be very touchy for some people. Somewhere in there, there is a very valid issue hidden of how do we deal with mental health issues. Do we consider them part of the course and accept people living with them affecting everybody around them? Do we consider them "broken" and "not compatible with society" and try to change their personality? These issues seep into the general issues of psychology and sociology not being very hard sciences, so science can't give us any clear answers about what to do. In that regard, I find it disingenuous how the left, with the help of gender studies, tries to construct a consensus that ain't there and most likely won't be there for the foreseeable future.