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Afghanistan I do sorta get why the US got involved. I think it’s impossible to “win” there, but I get the involvement. But Iraq was a completely retarded situat

by 0xbear 9y ago

Afghanistan I do sorta get why the US got involved. I think it’s impossible to “win” there, but I get the involvement. But Iraq was a completely retarded situation. Funding goddamn terrorists in Syria was retarded too. Regime change is retarded in general, aside from the dramatic events like WW2. It never works. Land war on the other end of the world serves only one purpose: just to show that the US government is a dangerous psychopath who will fuck you up at the slightest provocation, or sometimes even without one. Experts in geopolitics (ie George Friedman) call this “projecting power”. A secondary goal is to destabilize regions so that other countries are affected and they don’t consolidate their power and threaten the US interests. A good example are Georgia and Ukraine: crises were created out of nothing to keep a festering boil on Russia’s ass. It’s actually not a bad strategy, but it does tend to backfire, and when it does, it costs a ton of money.

RUG3Y 9y ago
It's also highly immoral. Destabilization and war in foreign lands results in devastating consequences for the civilian population. The US Government has a lot to answer for, and likely never will.
- nsjdjdjri88 9y ago
  Because the people change. How do you hold the people of today responsible for actions of the dead? That’s another form of tyranny Lift the oppressed but don’t oppress the rest for the past. Now, I don’t mean losing your cars and multiple homes as oppression. Not defending unfettered materialism Thomas Jefferson advocated for resetting the Constitution and laws for the same reason. Why hold people on 2017 to the philosophy of 1776? Stop thinking of it as hold government responsible and think about holding the individuals responsible The former is used as a faceless abstraction to afford cover for doing the latter They aren’t Gods and should be put in their place as such
  - RUG3Y 9y ago
    Because our shenanigans in Iraq, Libya, Syria, and dozens of other countries happened so long ago...Is that your argument? The United States is directly responsible for worldwide violence just within the last decade. I'm not talking about Thomas Jefferson here. The government consists of individuals. George Bush. John McCain. Barack Obama. We'll likely never know who all of the people are that influence these terrible policies.
    - nsjdjdjri88 9y ago
      Don’t write “hold the government responsible” is what I mean. Write about holding Obama or whoever, and detail the reasons Break down the abstractions to specific actors and events in detail “Corporations are evil!” Is the same nebulous crap that puts Equifax on the hook not their CEO Name the people and their actions. It’s how it works for us. Language matters. And we often blame abstractions like “the government” How do you hold that accountable? Most people can’t even name all 3 branches People don’t look at it as the individuals. If you want them to think of GW or Obama write their names and increase the signal associated with their efforts You just did it again “The Unites States is directly responsible...” All 300+ million directly? All government employees during the Obama administration did vile acts? What’s the real who and when of it? At least personally I see nebulous references such as “the US government did shifty thing!” as pointless Arguments have been made the US government has been violating its founding documents since the start Tell me specifically who and why and let’s have a real conversation about it
slezyr 9y ago
> A good example are Georgia and Ukraine: crises were created out of nothing to keep a festering boil on Russia’s ass. I'm ukrainian, can you tell me more? You know how maidan started? It was a peaceful protest and if cops simply ignored it, nothing would happen. Instead they did this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-talnbWQDpI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-talnbWQDpI This caused a bigger protest and response was the same. And etc and etc. At some moment they started to kidnap protesters from the hospitals. Then one of protesters have been found dead near the river. Another found in the wood with plastic bag on his head and they took out his intestines. > created out of nothing to keep a festering boil on Russia’s ass There been reasons for it. You know, I've been a pro-russian ukrainian all my life. I didn't liked ukrainian language(I'm from russian speaking part) and still can't speak it. But when russians started it propaganda campaign I started hate EVERYTHING about russia. Unlike Russia Today russian speaking propaganda was much dirtier and much more retarded. One they showed a magnet from speaker on TV and said that it was a bomb with HIV dropped by ukrainian aircraft. So... I wanted to say: fuck your "good example". Because isn't good for non-retarded person.
- 0xbear 9y ago
  I’m Russian, but I don’t live in Russia, so I’m not exposed to “Russian propaganda” (you do seem to be exposed to the Ukrainian flavor of it though). I also commiserate with what happened on the Ukrainian side, and in every election where Putin ran I voted against Putin. I dislike the man, and think he will be harmful to Russia in the long term. That said, you also can’t deny the involvement of the US Department of state in those events. The fundamental geostrategical priority for Russia is to maintain control (or at least good relations with, see Belarus) of the buffer regions around its densely populated regions. This stems from geography and topology: there are no mountains to protect the West of Russia from a land invasion. This is inviolable geostrategic principle that Russia, having learned the lessons of WW2, will just not let anyone touch. That is why there are “tensions” when your neighbor begins discussions of entering NATO with a bit of USDS help. NATO means (eventually) foreign military bases and tactical nukes within 100km of Rostov-on-Don and Taganrog. This is fundamentally unacceptable to Russia, which they have been saying again and again to everyone who would listen years before things turned ugly. It’s not personal, it’s a question of national security for them. The US would have done the same or worse if Russia got Mexico to enter a military alliance with it. Again, I sympathize, but I really can’t see how, given the progression of events, things could have turned any differently.

by 0xbear 9y ago

RUG3Y 9y ago

It's also highly immoral. Destabilization and war in foreign lands results in devastating consequences for the civilian population. The US Government has a lot to answer for, and likely never will.

nsjdjdjri88 9y ago
Because the people change. How do you hold the people of today responsible for actions of the dead? That’s another form of tyranny Lift the oppressed but don’t oppress the rest for the past. Now, I don’t mean losing your cars and multiple homes as oppression. Not defending unfettered materialism Thomas Jefferson advocated for resetting the Constitution and laws for the same reason. Why hold people on 2017 to the philosophy of 1776? Stop thinking of it as hold government responsible and think about holding the individuals responsible The former is used as a faceless abstraction to afford cover for doing the latter They aren’t Gods and should be put in their place as such
- RUG3Y 9y ago
  Because our shenanigans in Iraq, Libya, Syria, and dozens of other countries happened so long ago...Is that your argument? The United States is directly responsible for worldwide violence just within the last decade. I'm not talking about Thomas Jefferson here. The government consists of individuals. George Bush. John McCain. Barack Obama. We'll likely never know who all of the people are that influence these terrible policies.
  - nsjdjdjri88 9y ago
    Don’t write “hold the government responsible” is what I mean. Write about holding Obama or whoever, and detail the reasons Break down the abstractions to specific actors and events in detail “Corporations are evil!” Is the same nebulous crap that puts Equifax on the hook not their CEO Name the people and their actions. It’s how it works for us. Language matters. And we often blame abstractions like “the government” How do you hold that accountable? Most people can’t even name all 3 branches People don’t look at it as the individuals. If you want them to think of GW or Obama write their names and increase the signal associated with their efforts You just did it again “The Unites States is directly responsible...” All 300+ million directly? All government employees during the Obama administration did vile acts? What’s the real who and when of it? At least personally I see nebulous references such as “the US government did shifty thing!” as pointless Arguments have been made the US government has been violating its founding documents since the start Tell me specifically who and why and let’s have a real conversation about it

slezyr 9y ago

> A good example are Georgia and Ukraine: crises were created out of nothing to keep a festering boil on Russia’s ass. I'm ukrainian, can you tell me more? You know how maidan started? It was a peaceful protest and if cops simply ignored it, nothing would happen. Instead they did this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-talnbWQDpI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-talnbWQDpI This caused a bigger protest and response was the same. And etc and etc. At some moment they started to kidnap protesters from the hospitals. Then one of protesters have been found dead near the river. Another found in the wood with plastic bag on his head and they took out his intestines. > created out of nothing to keep a festering boil on Russia’s ass There been reasons for it. You know, I've been a pro-russian ukrainian all my life. I didn't liked ukrainian language(I'm from russian speaking part) and still can't speak it. But when russians started it propaganda campaign I started hate EVERYTHING about russia. Unlike Russia Today russian speaking propaganda was much dirtier and much more retarded. One they showed a magnet from speaker on TV and said that it was a bomb with HIV dropped by ukrainian aircraft. So... I wanted to say: fuck your "good example". Because isn't good for non-retarded person.

0xbear 9y ago
I’m Russian, but I don’t live in Russia, so I’m not exposed to “Russian propaganda” (you do seem to be exposed to the Ukrainian flavor of it though). I also commiserate with what happened on the Ukrainian side, and in every election where Putin ran I voted against Putin. I dislike the man, and think he will be harmful to Russia in the long term. That said, you also can’t deny the involvement of the US Department of state in those events. The fundamental geostrategical priority for Russia is to maintain control (or at least good relations with, see Belarus) of the buffer regions around its densely populated regions. This stems from geography and topology: there are no mountains to protect the West of Russia from a land invasion. This is inviolable geostrategic principle that Russia, having learned the lessons of WW2, will just not let anyone touch. That is why there are “tensions” when your neighbor begins discussions of entering NATO with a bit of USDS help. NATO means (eventually) foreign military bases and tactical nukes within 100km of Rostov-on-Don and Taganrog. This is fundamentally unacceptable to Russia, which they have been saying again and again to everyone who would listen years before things turned ugly. It’s not personal, it’s a question of national security for them. The US would have done the same or worse if Russia got Mexico to enter a military alliance with it. Again, I sympathize, but I really can’t see how, given the progression of events, things could have turned any differently.