5 ms·

I agree with most of what you're saying, but I'm not buying that these things (peace, environmental action, science investment, etc) aren't happening because th

I agree with most of what you're saying, but I'm not buying that these things (peace, environmental action, science investment, etc) aren't happening because the masses are being stymied by the powers that be. On the contrary, I don't see the masses caring about these things at all. Do you? I don't see the majority of the people demanding action against (or even acknowledging the existence of) climate change. Nor do I see them demanding action against endless war or illegal surveillance. Nor do I see them begging for more money to be invested in science. Instead I see the people sometimes arguing about a few hot-button political issues, but mostly I see the people preoccupied with pop culture and their daily lives. We, the People, have made it abundantly clear that we are fine with the status quo. No one had to coerce us. Remember, the Iraq War was not started over the outcry of the American people. It was started to thunderous applause.

Clubber 9y ago
>We, the People, have made it abundantly clear that we are fine with the status quo. Whether you lean D or R or neither, do you really believe Trump was a vote for the status quo? The Ds got shut out and the Rs are breaking apart and can't even work as a party. Things are changing, I just don't know if it's for the better.
- bryananderson 9y ago
  Okay, sorry: the status quo about things that matter. Climate change, endless war, inequality, etc. I just don't see the majority of the people doing anything about these issues.
  - Clubber 9y ago
    What can they do? Don't say vote, it was a serious question.
    - bryananderson 9y ago
      They really could vote though! As much as I hate him, Trump proved that you can win without the political and business establishments behind you. There are meaningful structural reforms that need to be carried out that would make it easier for the people's will to be expressed (gerrymandering, electoral college, citizens united, etc etc). But as of right now, no "establishment" is changing votes or shutting down "anti-establishment" media. If the people voted for a President AND Congress that would take real action on things like climate change, it would happen. But do you see the majority of the people even trying to do that any time soon?
      - Clubber 9y ago
        >But do you see the majority of the people even trying to do that any time soon? We barely have the majority of the people show up at the polls. One of the more groundbreaking things about Trump is he is the first R of note to denounce the Iraq war. The problem we currently have with the establishment is as a rule, they don't criticize publicly other members of their party. For me, that was significant. Ole Jeb said he would fight the Iraq war again. Probably not because he believed it, but because he wouldn't criticize a fellow R, let alone his own brother. Just think of all the decades of bad policies we have that may have been reversed had that unspoken rule not existed?
wfo 9y ago
Well, poll people about universal healthcare. It's, what, 70% support? Poll people about legalization of marijuana. Poll people about private prisons. Poll people about police buying military weapons, tanks on streets. Poll people about asset forfeiture. Poll people about a living wage. Poll people about gerrymandering. Poll people about money in politics. Poll people about the revolving door. Poll people about student loans. Poll people about net neutrality. Poll people about the TPP. Support for the Iraq war was created by lies and propagandists, explicitly and intentionally -- public opinion was manufactured through deceit, not genuine. And there were still huge antiwar protests and massive antiwar sentiment. You will get massive support on a wide variety of issues completely invisible to modern political discourse if you ask people. But the people asking the questions have enormous power. If you rate congresspeople by their collective votes in congress, if you let mainstream pundits who are paid explicitly to maintain the status quo ask questions, the answers will not be inspiring and most will look similar. I don't blame people for not demanding action, for not demanding things at all, since they've been taught it doesn't work and it's a waste of time. They are resigned to being ignored, they do not consent. Most American's don't vote. The keywords here are apathy and a disconnect with the system, not agreement.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]

Clubber 9y ago

>We, the People, have made it abundantly clear that we are fine with the status quo. Whether you lean D or R or neither, do you really believe Trump was a vote for the status quo? The Ds got shut out and the Rs are breaking apart and can't even work as a party. Things are changing, I just don't know if it's for the better.

bryananderson 9y ago
Okay, sorry: the status quo about things that matter. Climate change, endless war, inequality, etc. I just don't see the majority of the people doing anything about these issues.
- Clubber 9y ago
  What can they do? Don't say vote, it was a serious question.
  - bryananderson 9y ago
    They really could vote though! As much as I hate him, Trump proved that you can win without the political and business establishments behind you. There are meaningful structural reforms that need to be carried out that would make it easier for the people's will to be expressed (gerrymandering, electoral college, citizens united, etc etc). But as of right now, no "establishment" is changing votes or shutting down "anti-establishment" media. If the people voted for a President AND Congress that would take real action on things like climate change, it would happen. But do you see the majority of the people even trying to do that any time soon?
    - Clubber 9y ago
      >But do you see the majority of the people even trying to do that any time soon? We barely have the majority of the people show up at the polls. One of the more groundbreaking things about Trump is he is the first R of note to denounce the Iraq war. The problem we currently have with the establishment is as a rule, they don't criticize publicly other members of their party. For me, that was significant. Ole Jeb said he would fight the Iraq war again. Probably not because he believed it, but because he wouldn't criticize a fellow R, let alone his own brother. Just think of all the decades of bad policies we have that may have been reversed had that unspoken rule not existed?

wfo 9y ago

Well, poll people about universal healthcare. It's, what, 70% support? Poll people about legalization of marijuana. Poll people about private prisons. Poll people about police buying military weapons, tanks on streets. Poll people about asset forfeiture. Poll people about a living wage. Poll people about gerrymandering. Poll people about money in politics. Poll people about the revolving door. Poll people about student loans. Poll people about net neutrality. Poll people about the TPP. Support for the Iraq war was created by lies and propagandists, explicitly and intentionally -- public opinion was manufactured through deceit, not genuine. And there were still huge antiwar protests and massive antiwar sentiment. You will get massive support on a wide variety of issues completely invisible to modern political discourse if you ask people. But the people asking the questions have enormous power. If you rate congresspeople by their collective votes in congress, if you let mainstream pundits who are paid explicitly to maintain the status quo ask questions, the answers will not be inspiring and most will look similar. I don't blame people for not demanding action, for not demanding things at all, since they've been taught it doesn't work and it's a waste of time. They are resigned to being ignored, they do not consent. Most American's don't vote. The keywords here are apathy and a disconnect with the system, not agreement.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]