5 ms·

I really hope that we can accept turnabout as fair play. At some point, China is going to have technology that America wants and I hope that we can pilfer it.

I really hope that we can accept turnabout as fair play. At some point, China is going to have technology that America wants and I hope that we can pilfer it. On the flipside though, industrial espionage is a wealth transfer that reduces inequality. I recently purchased tires for my car - I got some Chinese ones that were 1/2 the price of the other tires and the Chinese tires are shockingly fine. I don't know how they'd get the price and quality without benefiting from industrial espionage. Perhaps something more ideal would be to opensource everything that's been stolen. It'd encourage companies to take security seriously and it would reduce the value of the stolen property. Lastly, I kind of wonder how much of this problem is due to companies insisting on removing dependencies from certain people / groups. Think of all the documentation people create 'in case you get hit by a bus tomorrow'. When my grandpa worked, it sounds like it was fine to have undocumented things so long as people knew about it (e.g watch out for that machine, it's sensitive to humidity and here's how to reset it). Now, I'm sure some middle manager would insist that the 'operational knowledge' be documented and stored somewhere that becomes that much more lucrative for a thief.

chisleu 9y ago
> ... I hope that we can pilfer it. Steal and steal alike? No thanks. > I don't know how they'd get the price and quality without benefiting from industrial espionage. They engineer their internal economy to keep cheap labor at near starvation levels of subsistence. > Perhaps something more ideal would be to opensource everything that's been stolen. Robin Hood arguments are vapid. Stealing is often costly. Hackers aren't free, although the Chinese government does basically quarantine anyone with any chops. > Now, I'm sure some middle manager would insist that the 'operational knowledge' be documented and stored somewhere that becomes that much more lucrative for a thief. Actually, all levels of management want information to be there because you don't want to lose enormous sums of money if someone leaves and doesn't document the location of encryption keys before taking a secret job and disappearing into Asia or eastern Europe.
- alexanderstears 9y ago
  They engineer their internal economy to keep cheap labor at near starvation levels of subsistence. But that doesn't explain how the tires are so good. Building a good tire is very, very difficult. I'd say that my cheap chinese tires are comparable with state of the art tires from 2002/2003, that requires much more expertise than a dozen good engineers can provide. In my opinion, the tires' performance is evidence that they use someone else's technology. Robin Hood arguments are vapid. Stealing is often costly. Hackers aren't free, although the Chinese government does basically quarantine anyone with any chops. But stealing is worth it and the right robin hood arrangement could reduce the expected value of industrial espionage. Weigh the costs and benefits yourself. Actually, all levels of management want information to be there because you don't want to lose enormous sums of money if someone leaves and doesn't document the location of encryption keys before taking a secret job and disappearing into Asia or eastern Europe. And there's the rub, how many people would leave their company if they had the company's commitment to stable employment? About once a year I sign something that verifies I understand that I'm an at-will employee, do you think that garners my loyalty?
- ajross 9y ago
  > They engineer their internal economy to keep cheap labor at near starvation levels of subsistence. The first clause is true enough, the latter seems to be missing a ton of context, given y'know, the actual famine this same government caused two generations ago. Low wages being a growth engine may not be fair or uniformly beneficial. Compared to the desperation of the cultural revolution it's sort of a paradise. Things are getting better, not worse.
natch 9y ago
>I don't know how they'd get the price and quality without benefiting from industrial espionage. It’s OK to not know how, but that doesn’t mean there wasn’t a legit path to that knowledge for them. Having a theory doesn’t mean the theory is the only explanation. Definitely industrial espionage happens all the time but another thing that also happens is that western companies hook up with Chinese partners and give over their know-how in exchange for dubious benefits like limited access to the Chinese market.
- alexanderstears 9y ago
  You're not wrong but if it were that easy to make tires with the level of quality that my tires have, I'd expect to see options from countries that aren't known for industrial espionage. As it is, the only decent cheap tires are from China. If you can source cheap Thai tires, you'll find that they're inferior to the Chinese tires. Does China have a comparative advantage in tire technology over Thailand? Probably. Why? Probably because of industrial espionage. If it were that easy to make decent cheap tires, you'd probably see other places doing it.
  - cat199 9y ago
    Actually, if you could source cheap Thai tires, the factory would probably be bought out by a multinational who could too, and the rebranded product would then sold at the higher world price... https://www.michelin.com/eng/michelin-group/organization/facilities/(continent)/959/(country)/1019 https://www.michelin.com/eng/michelin-group/organization/fac...
    - alexanderstears 9y ago
      They're not Thai tires. They're Michelin tires made in Thailand. If the Thai tire technology were world class, Michelin wouldn't be able to add value to the Thai factory.
  - natch 9y ago
    China’s market size is much bigger even accounting for the fact that it’s more of a potential market size than an actual one (1.4 billion population for China versus 66 million population for your example of Thailand.... a 20x difference so that should answer your question about why not Thailand.) That makes makes western companies do remarkable things in China. Not just partnering, but also opening branches in China and training up local staff with the latest techniques. Before long the leading edge technology is being developed in China, not elsewhere. This isn’t a made up scenario; it’s what has been happening for a couple of decades and now it’s getting pretty hard to ignore. Tim Cook (Apple) said: “The U.S., over time, began to stop having as many vocational kind of skills,” Cook explained. “I mean, you can take every tool and die maker in the United States and probably put them in a room that we’re currently sitting in. In China, you would have to have multiple football fields.” So the skills move there, the techniques move there, and pretty soon it should no longer be surprising that they also have the ability to make stuff well there.
virtuabhi 9y ago
What kind of thinking is this - Let them steal now so we can steal from them later? WTF. Also keep the 50% of the tire cost you "saved" to get a new set of tires after 6 months.
- alexanderstears 9y ago
  It's humanitarian - we'd be better off if more technology was more available.
- stale2002 9y ago
  It's not an undefensible argument. What do you think all the stuff about "information wants to be free", Aaron swartz ect is about? It is about ending intellectual property laws, and all laws that keep information and science and innovation locked up.
gicadin 9y ago
50% cheaper tires may not necessarily 50% worse tires than the competitor. It could be that 99% of tires between the companies are near identical, but the likely hood of a serious defect is higher in the cheaper tire ( due to less quality control resulting from cheaper prices and/or lower standards ). Or it can mean less tolerance at the extremes( heat/cold). Higher price can mean mean price gauging (like you are refering) but it can also mean straight up higher quality, reliability(consistency), or it can or many other things.
- alexanderstears 9y ago
  I bought the tires for their value proposition, not their absolute performance. The tires are strictly inferior to the Michelins but I can live with that. If one pops, I can swap it out for a spare in 10 minutes, tops. FWIW, I buy top of the line tires for my snow tires and motorcycle tires.
  - walshemj 9y ago
    assuming you don't have a blow out at 80 and kill yourself just hope you don't take anyone else with you
    - alexanderstears 9y ago
      Have you ever had a blowout in a car? They don't happen like that. Besides, you're not making this statement to everyone else who has an elevated risk factor - tires are more likely to fail as they age, tires are more likely to fail when they're not properly inflated, or etc. Why single me out? Go lecure the stancenation crowd about their risk factors. Additionally, I carry very good insurance and I drive a lighter car. From a utilitarian perspective, you'd be better off checking truck tires. I'd rather have my tires than 10 year old Goodyears. In fact, I got my tires because one of my 10 year old tires blew out. My car is safer now than it was prior to installing the Chinese tires.
    - firemancoder 9y ago
      Are we seriously tire-shaming people on here now? That can happen with any tire, any time, anywhere. And people have blowouts on the freeway all the time it doesn't send you flying into oncoming traffic.
toss1 9y ago
>industrial espionage is a wealth transfer that reduces inequality yeah, the worst kind of reduction in inequality -- stealing the work product legitimately earned by the developer. Someone going into your house and stealing all your electronics, and publishing your code also reduces inequality, I suppose you're ok with that? >...1/2 the price of the other tires and the Chinese tires are shockingly fine Just because you aren't able to discern the difference between your cheap Chinese tires and real ones doesn't mean that there is no difference. Perhaps they are adequate to the task of your daily driving, or perhaps the difference will only appear when they delaminate/burst/tear off the bead/fail to grip/etc. at the wrong moment and you find yourself in the ditch or in oncoming traffic. I'm continuously surprised at how credulous the HN readership is about counterfeit/stolen/copied technology (perhaps have a look at my post in my current field of expertise regarding counterfeit carbon bicycles, not unlike tires in complexity [0]). Perhaps HN readers have a bias from experiencing digital copies as 100% reliable, but in the manufacturing world, there are myriad opportunities to introduce bad variables. It's certainly remarkable that the Chinese company has produced a minimally usable tire, but I wouldn't trust my life to it without a lot more testing (for a yard truck, sure, but on the road...). [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10333244 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10333244
- alexanderstears 9y ago
  yeah, the worst kind of reduction in inequality -- stealing the work product legitimately earned by the developer. I'd say that a "people's revolution" is worse but that's political. Someone going into your house and stealing all your electronics, and publishing your code also reduces inequality, I suppose you're ok with that? You wouldn't download a car... the mechanism of IP theft usually isn't taking something tangible, it's duplicating something. If you take my phone, it means I can't use my phone. If you copy my journal, I can still use my journal. They're categorically different. but in the manufacturing world, there are myriad opportunities to introduce bad variables. It's certainly remarkable that the Chinese company has produced a minimally usable tire, but I wouldn't trust my life to it without a lot more testing So I hope their IP theft team was good enough. But tires have to pass DOT certification so they meet some minimum standard. I'm glad to live in a country where I can decide what's right for me and you can decide what's right for you. But the knife of quality variability cuts both ways, sometimes major manufacturers have issues. The top of the line tires (Pilot Power 3) I recently put on my motorcycle we recalled [0]. Thank goodness they didn't fail on me, but I might have been better served by crappy tires than my defective Pilot Power 3 tires. Unless you have some analytical way to evaluate the specific tires you're putting on your vehicle, you have to take a leap of faith. It's not unlike handmade carbon bicycles - some of them have issues even from the best manufacturer, the quality difference is a measure of degree, not a binary function. FWIW, this Chinese tire manufacturer also makes FAA certified tires for airplanes so they have demonstrated the capability to make tires for demanding applications. [0]: https://www.consumeraffairs.com/tire-recalls https://www.consumeraffairs.com/tire-recalls
rconti 9y ago
Out of curiosity, how do you know the tires you bought are good? What metrics are you using for analysis? I primarily buy performance tires and will avoid the hell out of Chinese tires, but I legitimately am curious about what metrics you're using. We all know there are ways to measure dry and wet grip, compliance, cold weather performance, longevity, resistance to drying/cracking/aging, but I'm not really familiar with any studies that try to compare Chinese brands with more traditional brands. I'm sure they're out there, though.
- alexanderstears 9y ago
  I care about noise and fuel efficiency. I'm getting roughly the same milage as I got on my eco rated goodyears, my car is 5 db quieter at 70 mph. My old tires used to start squealing on clover leafs at ~40 mph (with lackadaisical line selection) and my new tires don't squeal at 40 mph. I've never taken a clover leaf faster so I don't know the limits, and I get the impression that these tires would wear fast if you drove aggressively, they seem to really dislike any sort of scrub but they have a 50k mi warranty and the tire shop gave me a fair price on tire replacement certificates so they can't be all bad. I haven't tested these tires in the cold and I don't intend to - I have a winter wheel / tire set with WS80 Blizzacks. The chinese tires seem to struggle with rain but not to the point of reduced safety (at least compared to my old tires). Lastly, the side wall seems to flex in a very predictable way, I was very surprised by that. The tires are 225/60r16s so the side wall is relatively tall, and the suspension in my car is somewhat imbalanced, the weight transfer can sometimes be abrupt and my old goodyears would flex dramatically and suddenly, these new tires flex very progressively and it's easy to feel what's going on even though my steering isn't particularly communicative (it's a 2001 Toyota hydraulic system). I think it's because my car has double wishbone suspension at all 4 corners and the suspension controls the camber of the wheel very well throughout the suspension stroke.
  - rconti 9y ago
    Thanks! Cloverleaf and noise comparison based on worn old tires though I assume? These days tires last so damn long it's hard to compare like-for-like, I know. Every time I get new tires I'm amazed at how quiet they are. Especially as I've owned certain tires that howl like banshees when worn. (then again, I wear them down too much in the dry season).

chisleu 9y ago

> ... I hope that we can pilfer it. Steal and steal alike? No thanks. > I don't know how they'd get the price and quality without benefiting from industrial espionage. They engineer their internal economy to keep cheap labor at near starvation levels of subsistence. > Perhaps something more ideal would be to opensource everything that's been stolen. Robin Hood arguments are vapid. Stealing is often costly. Hackers aren't free, although the Chinese government does basically quarantine anyone with any chops. > Now, I'm sure some middle manager would insist that the 'operational knowledge' be documented and stored somewhere that becomes that much more lucrative for a thief. Actually, all levels of management want information to be there because you don't want to lose enormous sums of money if someone leaves and doesn't document the location of encryption keys before taking a secret job and disappearing into Asia or eastern Europe.

alexanderstears 9y ago
They engineer their internal economy to keep cheap labor at near starvation levels of subsistence. But that doesn't explain how the tires are so good. Building a good tire is very, very difficult. I'd say that my cheap chinese tires are comparable with state of the art tires from 2002/2003, that requires much more expertise than a dozen good engineers can provide. In my opinion, the tires' performance is evidence that they use someone else's technology. Robin Hood arguments are vapid. Stealing is often costly. Hackers aren't free, although the Chinese government does basically quarantine anyone with any chops. But stealing is worth it and the right robin hood arrangement could reduce the expected value of industrial espionage. Weigh the costs and benefits yourself. Actually, all levels of management want information to be there because you don't want to lose enormous sums of money if someone leaves and doesn't document the location of encryption keys before taking a secret job and disappearing into Asia or eastern Europe. And there's the rub, how many people would leave their company if they had the company's commitment to stable employment? About once a year I sign something that verifies I understand that I'm an at-will employee, do you think that garners my loyalty?
ajross 9y ago
> They engineer their internal economy to keep cheap labor at near starvation levels of subsistence. The first clause is true enough, the latter seems to be missing a ton of context, given y'know, the actual famine this same government caused two generations ago. Low wages being a growth engine may not be fair or uniformly beneficial. Compared to the desperation of the cultural revolution it's sort of a paradise. Things are getting better, not worse.

natch 9y ago

>I don't know how they'd get the price and quality without benefiting from industrial espionage. It’s OK to not know how, but that doesn’t mean there wasn’t a legit path to that knowledge for them. Having a theory doesn’t mean the theory is the only explanation. Definitely industrial espionage happens all the time but another thing that also happens is that western companies hook up with Chinese partners and give over their know-how in exchange for dubious benefits like limited access to the Chinese market.

alexanderstears 9y ago
You're not wrong but if it were that easy to make tires with the level of quality that my tires have, I'd expect to see options from countries that aren't known for industrial espionage. As it is, the only decent cheap tires are from China. If you can source cheap Thai tires, you'll find that they're inferior to the Chinese tires. Does China have a comparative advantage in tire technology over Thailand? Probably. Why? Probably because of industrial espionage. If it were that easy to make decent cheap tires, you'd probably see other places doing it.
- cat199 9y ago
  Actually, if you could source cheap Thai tires, the factory would probably be bought out by a multinational who could too, and the rebranded product would then sold at the higher world price... https://www.michelin.com/eng/michelin-group/organization/facilities/(continent)/959/(country)/1019 https://www.michelin.com/eng/michelin-group/organization/fac...
  - alexanderstears 9y ago
    They're not Thai tires. They're Michelin tires made in Thailand. If the Thai tire technology were world class, Michelin wouldn't be able to add value to the Thai factory.
- natch 9y ago
  China’s market size is much bigger even accounting for the fact that it’s more of a potential market size than an actual one (1.4 billion population for China versus 66 million population for your example of Thailand.... a 20x difference so that should answer your question about why not Thailand.) That makes makes western companies do remarkable things in China. Not just partnering, but also opening branches in China and training up local staff with the latest techniques. Before long the leading edge technology is being developed in China, not elsewhere. This isn’t a made up scenario; it’s what has been happening for a couple of decades and now it’s getting pretty hard to ignore. Tim Cook (Apple) said: “The U.S., over time, began to stop having as many vocational kind of skills,” Cook explained. “I mean, you can take every tool and die maker in the United States and probably put them in a room that we’re currently sitting in. In China, you would have to have multiple football fields.” So the skills move there, the techniques move there, and pretty soon it should no longer be surprising that they also have the ability to make stuff well there.

virtuabhi 9y ago

What kind of thinking is this - Let them steal now so we can steal from them later? WTF. Also keep the 50% of the tire cost you "saved" to get a new set of tires after 6 months.

alexanderstears 9y ago
It's humanitarian - we'd be better off if more technology was more available.
stale2002 9y ago
It's not an undefensible argument. What do you think all the stuff about "information wants to be free", Aaron swartz ect is about? It is about ending intellectual property laws, and all laws that keep information and science and innovation locked up.

gicadin 9y ago

50% cheaper tires may not necessarily 50% worse tires than the competitor. It could be that 99% of tires between the companies are near identical, but the likely hood of a serious defect is higher in the cheaper tire ( due to less quality control resulting from cheaper prices and/or lower standards ). Or it can mean less tolerance at the extremes( heat/cold). Higher price can mean mean price gauging (like you are refering) but it can also mean straight up higher quality, reliability(consistency), or it can or many other things.

alexanderstears 9y ago
I bought the tires for their value proposition, not their absolute performance. The tires are strictly inferior to the Michelins but I can live with that. If one pops, I can swap it out for a spare in 10 minutes, tops. FWIW, I buy top of the line tires for my snow tires and motorcycle tires.
- walshemj 9y ago
  assuming you don't have a blow out at 80 and kill yourself just hope you don't take anyone else with you
  - alexanderstears 9y ago
    Have you ever had a blowout in a car? They don't happen like that. Besides, you're not making this statement to everyone else who has an elevated risk factor - tires are more likely to fail as they age, tires are more likely to fail when they're not properly inflated, or etc. Why single me out? Go lecure the stancenation crowd about their risk factors. Additionally, I carry very good insurance and I drive a lighter car. From a utilitarian perspective, you'd be better off checking truck tires. I'd rather have my tires than 10 year old Goodyears. In fact, I got my tires because one of my 10 year old tires blew out. My car is safer now than it was prior to installing the Chinese tires.
  - firemancoder 9y ago
    Are we seriously tire-shaming people on here now? That can happen with any tire, any time, anywhere. And people have blowouts on the freeway all the time it doesn't send you flying into oncoming traffic.

toss1 9y ago

>industrial espionage is a wealth transfer that reduces inequality yeah, the worst kind of reduction in inequality -- stealing the work product legitimately earned by the developer. Someone going into your house and stealing all your electronics, and publishing your code also reduces inequality, I suppose you're ok with that? >...1/2 the price of the other tires and the Chinese tires are shockingly fine Just because you aren't able to discern the difference between your cheap Chinese tires and real ones doesn't mean that there is no difference. Perhaps they are adequate to the task of your daily driving, or perhaps the difference will only appear when they delaminate/burst/tear off the bead/fail to grip/etc. at the wrong moment and you find yourself in the ditch or in oncoming traffic. I'm continuously surprised at how credulous the HN readership is about counterfeit/stolen/copied technology (perhaps have a look at my post in my current field of expertise regarding counterfeit carbon bicycles, not unlike tires in complexity [0]). Perhaps HN readers have a bias from experiencing digital copies as 100% reliable, but in the manufacturing world, there are myriad opportunities to introduce bad variables. It's certainly remarkable that the Chinese company has produced a minimally usable tire, but I wouldn't trust my life to it without a lot more testing (for a yard truck, sure, but on the road...). [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10333244 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10333244

alexanderstears 9y ago
yeah, the worst kind of reduction in inequality -- stealing the work product legitimately earned by the developer. I'd say that a "people's revolution" is worse but that's political. Someone going into your house and stealing all your electronics, and publishing your code also reduces inequality, I suppose you're ok with that? You wouldn't download a car... the mechanism of IP theft usually isn't taking something tangible, it's duplicating something. If you take my phone, it means I can't use my phone. If you copy my journal, I can still use my journal. They're categorically different. but in the manufacturing world, there are myriad opportunities to introduce bad variables. It's certainly remarkable that the Chinese company has produced a minimally usable tire, but I wouldn't trust my life to it without a lot more testing So I hope their IP theft team was good enough. But tires have to pass DOT certification so they meet some minimum standard. I'm glad to live in a country where I can decide what's right for me and you can decide what's right for you. But the knife of quality variability cuts both ways, sometimes major manufacturers have issues. The top of the line tires (Pilot Power 3) I recently put on my motorcycle we recalled [0]. Thank goodness they didn't fail on me, but I might have been better served by crappy tires than my defective Pilot Power 3 tires. Unless you have some analytical way to evaluate the specific tires you're putting on your vehicle, you have to take a leap of faith. It's not unlike handmade carbon bicycles - some of them have issues even from the best manufacturer, the quality difference is a measure of degree, not a binary function. FWIW, this Chinese tire manufacturer also makes FAA certified tires for airplanes so they have demonstrated the capability to make tires for demanding applications. [0]: https://www.consumeraffairs.com/tire-recalls https://www.consumeraffairs.com/tire-recalls

rconti 9y ago

Out of curiosity, how do you know the tires you bought are good? What metrics are you using for analysis? I primarily buy performance tires and will avoid the hell out of Chinese tires, but I legitimately am curious about what metrics you're using. We all know there are ways to measure dry and wet grip, compliance, cold weather performance, longevity, resistance to drying/cracking/aging, but I'm not really familiar with any studies that try to compare Chinese brands with more traditional brands. I'm sure they're out there, though.

alexanderstears 9y ago
I care about noise and fuel efficiency. I'm getting roughly the same milage as I got on my eco rated goodyears, my car is 5 db quieter at 70 mph. My old tires used to start squealing on clover leafs at ~40 mph (with lackadaisical line selection) and my new tires don't squeal at 40 mph. I've never taken a clover leaf faster so I don't know the limits, and I get the impression that these tires would wear fast if you drove aggressively, they seem to really dislike any sort of scrub but they have a 50k mi warranty and the tire shop gave me a fair price on tire replacement certificates so they can't be all bad. I haven't tested these tires in the cold and I don't intend to - I have a winter wheel / tire set with WS80 Blizzacks. The chinese tires seem to struggle with rain but not to the point of reduced safety (at least compared to my old tires). Lastly, the side wall seems to flex in a very predictable way, I was very surprised by that. The tires are 225/60r16s so the side wall is relatively tall, and the suspension in my car is somewhat imbalanced, the weight transfer can sometimes be abrupt and my old goodyears would flex dramatically and suddenly, these new tires flex very progressively and it's easy to feel what's going on even though my steering isn't particularly communicative (it's a 2001 Toyota hydraulic system). I think it's because my car has double wishbone suspension at all 4 corners and the suspension controls the camber of the wheel very well throughout the suspension stroke.
- rconti 9y ago
  Thanks! Cloverleaf and noise comparison based on worn old tires though I assume? These days tires last so damn long it's hard to compare like-for-like, I know. Every time I get new tires I'm amazed at how quiet they are. Especially as I've owned certain tires that howl like banshees when worn. (then again, I wear them down too much in the dry season).