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The song lyrics hit home. My father was a green beret, and now I have a brother who is a combat controller and another brother who is 101st airborne and trainin

The song lyrics hit home. My father was a green beret, and now I have a brother who is a combat controller and another brother who is 101st airborne and training to become a ranger. I also started down that path but I have diminished lung capacity due to a bout with tuberculosis, so I never could join. There's a million things wrong with the lifestyle. Even if you don't die, you still do in a sociocultural sense. Divorce rates are near 100%. Nearly all of your job is classified or top secret, so you can't discuss it with anybody. Even your psychiatrists have to have top secret clearance just to talk to you. It's nearly impossible to have any commitments (social, financial, educational, etc.), because you can be pulled away at any moment, and you can't even tell people when you expect to return. Bankruptcy is extremely common, and nobody has good credit. It's nearly impossible to leave and do any other occupation successfully. And yet, even though he left the green berets to become a mostly unsuccessful but still boring CPA, and even though I basically have no relationship with him anymore, I still have this undeniable urge to be a part of it. I read the books, seek out the stories, devour any news of operations, etc. And while my dad paid lip service to how bad it was, he's secretly proud of his two special operations sons and he clings on to their lives, trying to relive his own.

drharby 9y ago
It takes a warrior breed willing to make the sacrifice. I doubt a single one isn't aware of the implications of joining
bitexploder 9y ago
edit: Thank you for sharing this, btw. It is really interesting. Military culture, especially elite special forces, breeds an extremely fascinating brand of human. Tough, practical in a basic sense, experience of human condition at a visceral level, extreme stress, indoctrination to violence and causing death, and a required level of training that you can interpret as supreme confidence. The lessons you can learn from these extremes are imminently applicable to day to day life if you read between the lines. I completely get the desire to want to be a part of a special forces team. The sense of belonging, elite physical conditioning and knowledge that you are actually the best at something without the usual asterisk we all place on ourselves and skills. There are tons of negatives as you have mentioned. Divorce rates are extremely high as you mentioned. What makes you good at being an elite soldier makes you really bad at being a companion to other humans that aren't also an elite special forces soldier serving along side you. We ask a lot of these folks, mostly men. Interestingly most special forces men self select and are what I consider "fully developed" (age 25+). They have usually been in the military since they were adults. Young kids just joining the army often lack the life skills to cope with things. I suspect if you could not join the military until you were 25 there would be a lot less PTSD as 25 year olds have time to develop life coping skills in more humane environment. So special forces men (at least for us forces) really WANT to be there and have had time to get out. Regardless of the politics behind it these guys mostly stay in because they believe in their country and their brothers in arms. They often vehemently disagree with the politics of many situations. No apology here for the jingoism and all the negative things that come with a militaristic culture, but it is fascinating to study these people and the extremes of training and conditioning they endure and what that can ultimately teach you about life. Heavy reading between the lines required, but the hacker crowd often dismisses these guys far too quickly because of all the negatives and militarism surrounding these guys. This culture exists, isn't going anywhere, and can teach a lot. Anyway, I guess this was all to say, I share your dual fascination/repulsion with this culture. It is just interesting, and as hackers we should always learn about interesting stuff, even if we disagree with it.
- phd514 9y ago
  I agree with much of what you say, but I do take issue with the idea that "what makes you good at being an elite soldier makes you really bad at being a companion to other humans that aren't also an elite special forces soldier." Certainly the time required to develop and maintain elite fighting skills takes away from the time one could spend on personal and familial relationships, but there's nothing intrinsic to the makeup of an elite soldier that detracts from one's ability to relate to other people. I have a family member who is retired from a special forces unit with all that entails (lots of deployments, medals, injuries, lost comrades, etc.) who is a good husband and father, patient, calm, resourceful and helpful, and generally the kind of guy you'd like to have as a neighbor. I think he had some advantages that many special ops guys don't always have such as very strong family ties throughout his deployments and not getting married until after his deployments were over, but he's certainly not the only one from his unit to do well in retirement.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - johnny99 9y ago
    I've been friends two former Navy UDT team members (precursor to the SEALs), both of whom were Korean war vets, and one former SEAL. One was an old girlfriend's dad and the kind of person you describe--unassuming, very decent family guy who I liked a lot. I had no idea he'd even been in the military, much less done insane things deep in North Korean territory, until I asked his daughter how he'd come to start a diving services company. The other former UDT vet was my high school writing teacher, a sort of Yoda figure. He covered the clock in his classroom with a picture of the Buddha, so you got a little jolt of patience training every time you snuck a glance at the clock. Whatever small writing talent I have started with him. Third was a friend's cousin who who'd left the service in his mid-thirties. For a while we were drinking buddies. We road bikes together for a while too, but that didn't last long--he was in such phenomenally better shape than me, despite training half as much, it was a mismatch. We were a mismatch in general--he was a bro's bro and I was like his token hippie friend. But we had fun boozing around for a while, and he was in no way damaged goods. Speaking of booze, one amazing thing about Sadler was his ability to write so many potboilers while drinking so hard. I don't drink anymore, in large part because my productivity just went to shit when I was drunk all the time. Maybe it's more feasible to write purple prose than code when you're loaded.
walshemj 9y ago
The recent memoir of a UK SF and Security Service operator by Tom Marcus is an interesting read https://www.amazon.co.uk/Soldier-Spy-Tom-Marcus/dp/071818484X https://www.amazon.co.uk/Soldier-Spy-Tom-Marcus/dp/071818484...
binarytransform 9y ago
As a 12-year post-9/11 veteran with 7 years at a Tier 1 SOCOM unit and currently a successful BD guy at a Top 5 SV unicorn, your post is filled with misinformation, generalities, and is frankly offensive. Many of my brothers and sisters from the SOF world have successfully transitioned to the civilian world and are crushing it. Are there dark times - yes. But we either choose to let them define us or choose to rise above and move ahead with our goals. Your comment about bankruptcies and poor credit is not even worth responding to.
- saosebastiao 9y ago
  The world under SOCOM is pretty big, and I've only experienced some of it, second hand via direct family as well as family friends. I may be painting with an overly broad brush, but I'm telling it how I experienced it. The bankruptcy and credit problem may not be as relevant anymore due to technology, but it was absolutely relevant in the time my father was active. The technology we rely on to maintain our finances (automatic payments, mail, pervasive internet and phone communications) didn't exist, and if it did, it wasn't anywhere near the combat outposts where they would be deployed to for several months to train local militias. It is really hard to pay a bill if you can't be sent a bill, call to ask about a balance, send a check via mail, or have your bank take care of it for you. I do know at least one former Ranger who was pretty successful in a civilian job (logistics at amazon), but I've known far more that couldn't hack anything out of the military (apart from security contractors that is). Maybe my sample is small and not representative, but that's just the way I've seen it. Sorry if I offended you by the generalization, it wasn't my intent at all.
- 11001122 9y ago
  I'm laughing my ass off at the fact you have actually posted your little resumé in a comment. The guys that do stuff usually aren't the ones to float what they've done in order to be taken seriously, especially a "Tier 1" guy. But, there are absolutely dudes no matter how high up who are not smart in how they handle their personal finances. Didn't Matt Bissonette (aka Mark Owens) write a novel about his time in DEVGRU and what took place on the UBL mission because he didn't have any money?

drharby 9y ago

It takes a warrior breed willing to make the sacrifice. I doubt a single one isn't aware of the implications of joining

bitexploder 9y ago

edit: Thank you for sharing this, btw. It is really interesting. Military culture, especially elite special forces, breeds an extremely fascinating brand of human. Tough, practical in a basic sense, experience of human condition at a visceral level, extreme stress, indoctrination to violence and causing death, and a required level of training that you can interpret as supreme confidence. The lessons you can learn from these extremes are imminently applicable to day to day life if you read between the lines. I completely get the desire to want to be a part of a special forces team. The sense of belonging, elite physical conditioning and knowledge that you are actually the best at something without the usual asterisk we all place on ourselves and skills. There are tons of negatives as you have mentioned. Divorce rates are extremely high as you mentioned. What makes you good at being an elite soldier makes you really bad at being a companion to other humans that aren't also an elite special forces soldier serving along side you. We ask a lot of these folks, mostly men. Interestingly most special forces men self select and are what I consider "fully developed" (age 25+). They have usually been in the military since they were adults. Young kids just joining the army often lack the life skills to cope with things. I suspect if you could not join the military until you were 25 there would be a lot less PTSD as 25 year olds have time to develop life coping skills in more humane environment. So special forces men (at least for us forces) really WANT to be there and have had time to get out. Regardless of the politics behind it these guys mostly stay in because they believe in their country and their brothers in arms. They often vehemently disagree with the politics of many situations. No apology here for the jingoism and all the negative things that come with a militaristic culture, but it is fascinating to study these people and the extremes of training and conditioning they endure and what that can ultimately teach you about life. Heavy reading between the lines required, but the hacker crowd often dismisses these guys far too quickly because of all the negatives and militarism surrounding these guys. This culture exists, isn't going anywhere, and can teach a lot. Anyway, I guess this was all to say, I share your dual fascination/repulsion with this culture. It is just interesting, and as hackers we should always learn about interesting stuff, even if we disagree with it.

phd514 9y ago
I agree with much of what you say, but I do take issue with the idea that "what makes you good at being an elite soldier makes you really bad at being a companion to other humans that aren't also an elite special forces soldier." Certainly the time required to develop and maintain elite fighting skills takes away from the time one could spend on personal and familial relationships, but there's nothing intrinsic to the makeup of an elite soldier that detracts from one's ability to relate to other people. I have a family member who is retired from a special forces unit with all that entails (lots of deployments, medals, injuries, lost comrades, etc.) who is a good husband and father, patient, calm, resourceful and helpful, and generally the kind of guy you'd like to have as a neighbor. I think he had some advantages that many special ops guys don't always have such as very strong family ties throughout his deployments and not getting married until after his deployments were over, but he's certainly not the only one from his unit to do well in retirement.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- johnny99 9y ago
  I've been friends two former Navy UDT team members (precursor to the SEALs), both of whom were Korean war vets, and one former SEAL. One was an old girlfriend's dad and the kind of person you describe--unassuming, very decent family guy who I liked a lot. I had no idea he'd even been in the military, much less done insane things deep in North Korean territory, until I asked his daughter how he'd come to start a diving services company. The other former UDT vet was my high school writing teacher, a sort of Yoda figure. He covered the clock in his classroom with a picture of the Buddha, so you got a little jolt of patience training every time you snuck a glance at the clock. Whatever small writing talent I have started with him. Third was a friend's cousin who who'd left the service in his mid-thirties. For a while we were drinking buddies. We road bikes together for a while too, but that didn't last long--he was in such phenomenally better shape than me, despite training half as much, it was a mismatch. We were a mismatch in general--he was a bro's bro and I was like his token hippie friend. But we had fun boozing around for a while, and he was in no way damaged goods. Speaking of booze, one amazing thing about Sadler was his ability to write so many potboilers while drinking so hard. I don't drink anymore, in large part because my productivity just went to shit when I was drunk all the time. Maybe it's more feasible to write purple prose than code when you're loaded.

walshemj 9y ago

The recent memoir of a UK SF and Security Service operator by Tom Marcus is an interesting read https://www.amazon.co.uk/Soldier-Spy-Tom-Marcus/dp/071818484X https://www.amazon.co.uk/Soldier-Spy-Tom-Marcus/dp/071818484...

binarytransform 9y ago

As a 12-year post-9/11 veteran with 7 years at a Tier 1 SOCOM unit and currently a successful BD guy at a Top 5 SV unicorn, your post is filled with misinformation, generalities, and is frankly offensive. Many of my brothers and sisters from the SOF world have successfully transitioned to the civilian world and are crushing it. Are there dark times - yes. But we either choose to let them define us or choose to rise above and move ahead with our goals. Your comment about bankruptcies and poor credit is not even worth responding to.

saosebastiao 9y ago
The world under SOCOM is pretty big, and I've only experienced some of it, second hand via direct family as well as family friends. I may be painting with an overly broad brush, but I'm telling it how I experienced it. The bankruptcy and credit problem may not be as relevant anymore due to technology, but it was absolutely relevant in the time my father was active. The technology we rely on to maintain our finances (automatic payments, mail, pervasive internet and phone communications) didn't exist, and if it did, it wasn't anywhere near the combat outposts where they would be deployed to for several months to train local militias. It is really hard to pay a bill if you can't be sent a bill, call to ask about a balance, send a check via mail, or have your bank take care of it for you. I do know at least one former Ranger who was pretty successful in a civilian job (logistics at amazon), but I've known far more that couldn't hack anything out of the military (apart from security contractors that is). Maybe my sample is small and not representative, but that's just the way I've seen it. Sorry if I offended you by the generalization, it wasn't my intent at all.
11001122 9y ago
I'm laughing my ass off at the fact you have actually posted your little resumé in a comment. The guys that do stuff usually aren't the ones to float what they've done in order to be taken seriously, especially a "Tier 1" guy. But, there are absolutely dudes no matter how high up who are not smart in how they handle their personal finances. Didn't Matt Bissonette (aka Mark Owens) write a novel about his time in DEVGRU and what took place on the UBL mission because he didn't have any money?