5 ms·

...or just that there is a strong connection between sex and gender. The fact that there are (a small minority of) people who feel "intense, persistent gender i

...or just that there is a strong connection between sex and gender. The fact that there are (a small minority of) people who feel "intense, persistent gender incongruence" (gender dysphoria) does not mean that it should be simply considered a "normal course of life" any more than clinical depression is a normal course of life. While legitimizing transgender identities through legislation may help to reduce negative social stigmas (a good thing), it can also be harmful to individuals experiencing those feelings.

f137 9y ago
> or just that there is a strong connection between sex and gender. incredible who would think that?
JenBarb 9y ago
When do you think it would be harmful to a person who identifies as transgender to have their feelings acknowledged as real?
- curiousgeorgio 9y ago
  I don't like to use the word "disorder" in this context (or any context where people can be easily offended) because it does have some negative stigmas attached to it. However, in this case, it's important to identify some feelings (however real they may be to the individual) as signs of a disorder, simply because they cause real distress for that person, and they don't match the normally congruent relationship between sex and gender. A person with schizophrenia may imagine and feel things that aren't strictly real, but are nonetheless "real" in terms of what they experience. In that case, it would be harmful to legitimize those things, and it's important to help the person distinguish between what feels real and what is real. In no way am I equating transgender feelings to schizophrenia, but those same principles should apply.
  - Chris2048 9y ago
    > In no way am I equating transgender feelings to schizophrenia No, but people like to misrepresent metaphors when it suits their worldview.
- djsumdog 9y ago
  Gender reassignment surgery. John Hopkins stopped preforming the surgery for years. There are pretty prevalent trans women, like Kate Bornstein, have acknowledged that she couldn't really consider herself a full woman afterwards; that she couldn't experience periods, pregnancy and many of the other aspects of being a woman. This is a very touchy subject so hear me out. Anorexic can be caused by a type of body dysphoria; meaning you always see yourself as fat -- a disconnect between who you are and what's in the mirror. Same goes for people who feel like they need a part of their body amputated in order to be complete. Some surgeons preform amputations on these people, more out of fear that they'd try to preform amputation themselves. But is this healthy? This gets into a very complex discussion on what is health/mental health. I'm totally for people changing their gender roles or adding things from opposite gender roles. Throughout history we see major roles associated with either men or women change. From the Greeks to the Sumerians to the Romans, the idea of what men and women do in society can change quite a bit. Today we might acknowledge it's more fluid and we don't have to be locked into these social constructions. We redefine gender as the social construction and sex as the biological XX/XY chromosome types. When people throw around "mental illness" with "transgender" it is never to uplift, but almost always to denigrate. It's a conservative thing and it's terrible. If they are having trouble identifying with themselves, and want to change their bodies drastically, essentially mutilating themselves (to quote South Park, "You mean I'm just a man with a mutilated penis?") we should ask ourselves .. is that a good thing? Maybe you can look and act and be like a woman/men, but accept what you were born biologically as a man/women. I wish there was a way to talk about body dysphoria in a way that was helpful and not hateful, and maybe talk about how progressives can be for gender role fluidity and transgendered individuals, yet also acknowledging that reassignment surgery may be a bad thing and a sign people's view of themselves may not be in line with reality or beneficial to their overall well being. It's a very dangerous issue to touch.
  - dhimes 9y ago
    I care only about one thing: Ten years after the surgery, are the people who underwent sex reassignment surgery happier than they were before? To my knowledge the answer is not conclusive- partially because it's difficult to find the folks for the follow-up survey.
throwawayknecht 9y ago
Die in a fucking fire. The same goes for anyone who flags this comment as long as the parent remains up.
- sctb 9y ago
  This is not how to comment on Hacker News regardless of what you're replying to. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - throwawayknecht 9y ago
    The implication you're making here, by addressing specifically this comment, is that the parent is how to comment on Hacker News. You run a cesspool.
    - sctb 9y ago
      There is not the slightest implication of this. My meaning is very narrow and completely independent of the original parent: what you posted is not on topic for this website and violates its guidelines.
      - throwawayknecht 9y ago
        > My meaning is very narrow and completely independent of the original parent My dude, that is just not how writing, conversation, or moderation works.

f137 9y ago

> or just that there is a strong connection between sex and gender. incredible who would think that?

JenBarb 9y ago

When do you think it would be harmful to a person who identifies as transgender to have their feelings acknowledged as real?

curiousgeorgio 9y ago
I don't like to use the word "disorder" in this context (or any context where people can be easily offended) because it does have some negative stigmas attached to it. However, in this case, it's important to identify some feelings (however real they may be to the individual) as signs of a disorder, simply because they cause real distress for that person, and they don't match the normally congruent relationship between sex and gender. A person with schizophrenia may imagine and feel things that aren't strictly real, but are nonetheless "real" in terms of what they experience. In that case, it would be harmful to legitimize those things, and it's important to help the person distinguish between what feels real and what is real. In no way am I equating transgender feelings to schizophrenia, but those same principles should apply.
- Chris2048 9y ago
  > In no way am I equating transgender feelings to schizophrenia No, but people like to misrepresent metaphors when it suits their worldview.
djsumdog 9y ago
Gender reassignment surgery. John Hopkins stopped preforming the surgery for years. There are pretty prevalent trans women, like Kate Bornstein, have acknowledged that she couldn't really consider herself a full woman afterwards; that she couldn't experience periods, pregnancy and many of the other aspects of being a woman. This is a very touchy subject so hear me out. Anorexic can be caused by a type of body dysphoria; meaning you always see yourself as fat -- a disconnect between who you are and what's in the mirror. Same goes for people who feel like they need a part of their body amputated in order to be complete. Some surgeons preform amputations on these people, more out of fear that they'd try to preform amputation themselves. But is this healthy? This gets into a very complex discussion on what is health/mental health. I'm totally for people changing their gender roles or adding things from opposite gender roles. Throughout history we see major roles associated with either men or women change. From the Greeks to the Sumerians to the Romans, the idea of what men and women do in society can change quite a bit. Today we might acknowledge it's more fluid and we don't have to be locked into these social constructions. We redefine gender as the social construction and sex as the biological XX/XY chromosome types. When people throw around "mental illness" with "transgender" it is never to uplift, but almost always to denigrate. It's a conservative thing and it's terrible. If they are having trouble identifying with themselves, and want to change their bodies drastically, essentially mutilating themselves (to quote South Park, "You mean I'm just a man with a mutilated penis?") we should ask ourselves .. is that a good thing? Maybe you can look and act and be like a woman/men, but accept what you were born biologically as a man/women. I wish there was a way to talk about body dysphoria in a way that was helpful and not hateful, and maybe talk about how progressives can be for gender role fluidity and transgendered individuals, yet also acknowledging that reassignment surgery may be a bad thing and a sign people's view of themselves may not be in line with reality or beneficial to their overall well being. It's a very dangerous issue to touch.
- dhimes 9y ago
  I care only about one thing: Ten years after the surgery, are the people who underwent sex reassignment surgery happier than they were before? To my knowledge the answer is not conclusive- partially because it's difficult to find the folks for the follow-up survey.

throwawayknecht 9y ago

Die in a fucking fire. The same goes for anyone who flags this comment as long as the parent remains up.

sctb 9y ago
This is not how to comment on Hacker News regardless of what you're replying to. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- throwawayknecht 9y ago
  The implication you're making here, by addressing specifically this comment, is that the parent is how to comment on Hacker News. You run a cesspool.
  - sctb 9y ago
    There is not the slightest implication of this. My meaning is very narrow and completely independent of the original parent: what you posted is not on topic for this website and violates its guidelines.
    - throwawayknecht 9y ago
      > My meaning is very narrow and completely independent of the original parent My dude, that is just not how writing, conversation, or moderation works.