6 ms·

Conflating these seems a bit disingenuous. It seems plausible that you can innately know your sex, and that this comes with some behaviour. It's not the same as

by icen 9y ago

Conflating these seems a bit disingenuous. It seems plausible that you can innately know your sex, and that this comes with some behaviour. It's not the same as saying that girls being associated with the colour pink isn't a social construct.

drzaiusapelord 9y ago
Well, that's taking it to an irrational extreme. You can cherry pick stuff like "There's no genetic code for liking lace bras and makeup," but there is most likely code that's about adorning and beautifying yourself as a woman. Or code about being attracted to the aesthetic of beauty and beautification thus having a favorite color or color palette, thus the fashion industry standardizing on a handful of palettes considered feminine. Even if the colors are arbitary, just the concept of acceptable and fashionable colors, per season, per fad, etc is highly feminine. Men, often, can wear any color in any season and not have it bother them or have other men criticize them for it. Nor have women consider it unattractive.
- icebraining 9y ago
  the concept of acceptable and fashionable colors, per season, per fad, etc is highly feminine. Men, often, can wear any color in any season and not have it bother them or have other men criticize them for it. Nor have women consider it unattractive. That the fashionable seasonable colors is associated with the feminine gender is true, but it says nothing about whether it's an inherent trait, as you imply, or something created by society. I have to say I'm quite suspicious of inherent genetic traits that only reveal themselves when the textile industry appears and has to find ways to get people to buy more product.
  - adekok 9y ago
    Look at sex differences in animals. There are many, many, cases where one sex does the searching for (colorful, lots of adornment) and the other is the searched-for (drab, no adornment). It is entirely reasonable to assume that there is a biological basis for the sex differences in men and womens fashion. There may not be proof that the sex differences are innate, but it's reasonable to propose that they are innate. By the same token, it is unreasonable to deny that these sex differences are innate, until such time as proof is offered. > I have to say I'm quite suspicious of inherent genetic traits that only reveal themselves when the textile industry appears There's also every reason to believe that people were modifying their appearance before textiles were around. See scarification, use of colored clays / paints, etc. Even something like singing can be used as a way to attract mates. There's no reason to pick textiles as the sole use of fashion.
    - icebraining 9y ago
      We're in complete agreement - I don't deny that it's possible, I'm just suspicious. Regarding the example, I was picking on one given, particularly on the seasonable part. I realize people were adorning themselves before the industrial revolution. But then again, people of all genders were doing that.
  - smallnamespace 9y ago
    It seems like there's a middle ground here, which is that there are innate propensities or drives that are then molded and directed by our cultures, in both healthy and unhealthy ways. I mean, I don't trust the processed food industry either, and will readily admit that they do everything they can to manipulate human desires for profit. Do people have an innate desire for Coke and chicken nuggets? No. But looking at what the industry does, and then using that to conclude that (most) humans have no instinctual tendency towards sugar and high fat foods seems mistaken.
    - icebraining 9y ago
      Not jumping to conclusions - one way or the other - was my whole point :)
jMyles 9y ago
> It seems plausible that you can innately know your sex Many more people are certain of their sex than of their gender. That's the whole point of analyzing cases like this.

by icen 9y ago

drzaiusapelord 9y ago

Well, that's taking it to an irrational extreme. You can cherry pick stuff like "There's no genetic code for liking lace bras and makeup," but there is most likely code that's about adorning and beautifying yourself as a woman. Or code about being attracted to the aesthetic of beauty and beautification thus having a favorite color or color palette, thus the fashion industry standardizing on a handful of palettes considered feminine. Even if the colors are arbitary, just the concept of acceptable and fashionable colors, per season, per fad, etc is highly feminine. Men, often, can wear any color in any season and not have it bother them or have other men criticize them for it. Nor have women consider it unattractive.

icebraining 9y ago
the concept of acceptable and fashionable colors, per season, per fad, etc is highly feminine. Men, often, can wear any color in any season and not have it bother them or have other men criticize them for it. Nor have women consider it unattractive. That the fashionable seasonable colors is associated with the feminine gender is true, but it says nothing about whether it's an inherent trait, as you imply, or something created by society. I have to say I'm quite suspicious of inherent genetic traits that only reveal themselves when the textile industry appears and has to find ways to get people to buy more product.
- adekok 9y ago
  Look at sex differences in animals. There are many, many, cases where one sex does the searching for (colorful, lots of adornment) and the other is the searched-for (drab, no adornment). It is entirely reasonable to assume that there is a biological basis for the sex differences in men and womens fashion. There may not be proof that the sex differences are innate, but it's reasonable to propose that they are innate. By the same token, it is unreasonable to deny that these sex differences are innate, until such time as proof is offered. > I have to say I'm quite suspicious of inherent genetic traits that only reveal themselves when the textile industry appears There's also every reason to believe that people were modifying their appearance before textiles were around. See scarification, use of colored clays / paints, etc. Even something like singing can be used as a way to attract mates. There's no reason to pick textiles as the sole use of fashion.
  - icebraining 9y ago
    We're in complete agreement - I don't deny that it's possible, I'm just suspicious. Regarding the example, I was picking on one given, particularly on the seasonable part. I realize people were adorning themselves before the industrial revolution. But then again, people of all genders were doing that.
- smallnamespace 9y ago
  It seems like there's a middle ground here, which is that there are innate propensities or drives that are then molded and directed by our cultures, in both healthy and unhealthy ways. I mean, I don't trust the processed food industry either, and will readily admit that they do everything they can to manipulate human desires for profit. Do people have an innate desire for Coke and chicken nuggets? No. But looking at what the industry does, and then using that to conclude that (most) humans have no instinctual tendency towards sugar and high fat foods seems mistaken.
  - icebraining 9y ago
    Not jumping to conclusions - one way or the other - was my whole point :)

jMyles 9y ago

> It seems plausible that you can innately know your sex Many more people are certain of their sex than of their gender. That's the whole point of analyzing cases like this.