5 ms·

Good point. But I don't think most people realize that if it weren't for the way adults decorated their children, their sexes would be wholly invisible. People

by mfoy_ 9y ago

Good point. But I don't think most people realize that if it weren't for the way adults decorated their children, their sexes would be wholly invisible. People seem to generally be more comfortable when they can put a label on things...

microcolonel 9y ago
Well, they're not wholly invisible, but close enough to it that they can typically share clothes as a practical matter. You can expect in about 99.5% of cases that your child will identify with the gender corresponding to their sex, so people dress their kids up in miniaturized adult clothing matching their likely gender, in anticipation of adulthood. This seems to have started with the rich, and as societies get more generally rich, more people typically start wanting the same things. The sexes are quite visible before puberty in terms of behaviour, just not so much in external development. I'm not much against gender roles, I don't see the problem with them. From a practical perspective, it seems like people will do better if they are familiarized, from an early age, with the role they'll almost inevitably seek to fill to at least some extent. Worst case you find out you've been somewhat wrong at around puberty, and you adjust from there.
- Mz 9y ago
  I'm not much against gender roles, I don't see the problem with them. From a practical perspective, it seems like people will do better if they are familiarized, from an early age, with the role they'll almost inevitably. I am a woman who was one of the top ranked students of my graduating class. I see lots of problems with it. An awful lot of the social construct of girl's lives only works if you "marry well" and if marrying well is the only thing you want out of life. You run into a fuckton of serious friction between that social construct and wanting an education, making your own money, being gay and on and on and on. As just one side of the story. I also did not want my sons to grow up and not know how to, for example, feed themselves properly. This has serious health consequences and just fundamentally should not be someone else's responsibility.
  - microcolonel 9y ago
    > An awful lot of the social construct of girl's lives only works if you "marry well" and if marrying well is the only thing you want out of life. To the extent that this is the expectation on women, it is the expectation on men to be husband material. Straight women in western society are legally and culturally responsible for choosing a husband if they want one (and most do). The majority of women (and men) want to have kids, either ASAP or eventually, and the best way to raise kids is in a stable marriage. When people encourage you to do this, entirely at your option, they are reinforcing very reliable advice. If you want an advanced education, great! Nobody has the right to stop you, and nobody should have the right to force you either. Anyone who feels they have the determination and desire to contribute to science or business, and is so passionate that they are willing to forego or delay their personal development, should feel the full support of society. > I also did not want my sons to grow up and not know how to, for example, feed themselves properly. Cooking food, especially staple meals, is not gender specific. Every man I know can cook local staple meals (pasta and sauce, omelettes, chili, chicken and vegetable soup, [sometimes soy sauce based vegetable soups, depending on social group]), I see no difference in general adherence to common dietary advice except that the guys maybe like red meat more. Mere adherence to a gender role is not a moral good in and of itself; but that shouldn't turn people off of them. They give structure on matters that you don't feel all that passionate about.
    - Mz 9y ago
      You are cherry picking. In social settings where gender roles are pretty strictly enforced, men are actively discouraged from learning to cook. It is "women's work." Also, while I generally agree that a stable, healthy marriage is best for raising kids, one of the problems here is that people are living longer and having fewer children. Even if a woman marries well, after her kids are grown, there are very real problems for her and other people to expect her to remain confined to certain caretaking roles. The fact that people are living longer and child mortality rates are down inherently creates social pressure to handle things differently than in the past. I think you only escape this by erasing a great deal of progress that led to both of these positive outcomes.

by mfoy_ 9y ago

microcolonel 9y ago

Well, they're not wholly invisible, but close enough to it that they can typically share clothes as a practical matter. You can expect in about 99.5% of cases that your child will identify with the gender corresponding to their sex, so people dress their kids up in miniaturized adult clothing matching their likely gender, in anticipation of adulthood. This seems to have started with the rich, and as societies get more generally rich, more people typically start wanting the same things. The sexes are quite visible before puberty in terms of behaviour, just not so much in external development. I'm not much against gender roles, I don't see the problem with them. From a practical perspective, it seems like people will do better if they are familiarized, from an early age, with the role they'll almost inevitably seek to fill to at least some extent. Worst case you find out you've been somewhat wrong at around puberty, and you adjust from there.

Mz 9y ago
I'm not much against gender roles, I don't see the problem with them. From a practical perspective, it seems like people will do better if they are familiarized, from an early age, with the role they'll almost inevitably. I am a woman who was one of the top ranked students of my graduating class. I see lots of problems with it. An awful lot of the social construct of girl's lives only works if you "marry well" and if marrying well is the only thing you want out of life. You run into a fuckton of serious friction between that social construct and wanting an education, making your own money, being gay and on and on and on. As just one side of the story. I also did not want my sons to grow up and not know how to, for example, feed themselves properly. This has serious health consequences and just fundamentally should not be someone else's responsibility.
- microcolonel 9y ago
  > An awful lot of the social construct of girl's lives only works if you "marry well" and if marrying well is the only thing you want out of life. To the extent that this is the expectation on women, it is the expectation on men to be husband material. Straight women in western society are legally and culturally responsible for choosing a husband if they want one (and most do). The majority of women (and men) want to have kids, either ASAP or eventually, and the best way to raise kids is in a stable marriage. When people encourage you to do this, entirely at your option, they are reinforcing very reliable advice. If you want an advanced education, great! Nobody has the right to stop you, and nobody should have the right to force you either. Anyone who feels they have the determination and desire to contribute to science or business, and is so passionate that they are willing to forego or delay their personal development, should feel the full support of society. > I also did not want my sons to grow up and not know how to, for example, feed themselves properly. Cooking food, especially staple meals, is not gender specific. Every man I know can cook local staple meals (pasta and sauce, omelettes, chili, chicken and vegetable soup, [sometimes soy sauce based vegetable soups, depending on social group]), I see no difference in general adherence to common dietary advice except that the guys maybe like red meat more. Mere adherence to a gender role is not a moral good in and of itself; but that shouldn't turn people off of them. They give structure on matters that you don't feel all that passionate about.
  - Mz 9y ago
    You are cherry picking. In social settings where gender roles are pretty strictly enforced, men are actively discouraged from learning to cook. It is "women's work." Also, while I generally agree that a stable, healthy marriage is best for raising kids, one of the problems here is that people are living longer and having fewer children. Even if a woman marries well, after her kids are grown, there are very real problems for her and other people to expect her to remain confined to certain caretaking roles. The fact that people are living longer and child mortality rates are down inherently creates social pressure to handle things differently than in the past. I think you only escape this by erasing a great deal of progress that led to both of these positive outcomes.