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>Plus, now I have to learn what Redux is, and how Vue is the next best thing that happened since Angular 2.0. How to use styled-components to make JavaScript in

>Plus, now I have to learn what Redux is, and how Vue is the next best thing that happened since Angular 2.0. How to use styled-components to make JavaScript in React do what CSS can do on it’s own. I'm glad I get to call the shots where I work, and I've steered my team clear of all of this stuff. If you have a deep knowledge of the core technologies -- HTML, JS, and CSS -- you can build a great front end with a reasonable amount of time and effort. If something breaks, it's likely going to be our own code, and much easier to diagnose and fix.

deleted 9y ago
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mfoy_ 9y ago
Framework churn sucks. It's a shame you're being down-voted, I can totally understand where you're coming from.
- topbanana 9y ago
  It does, but that doesn't mean you can't choose a decent stack and stick with it
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - scaryclam 9y ago
    Shouldn't we be looking at the task at hand and picking the best tool for the job though? Using a framework because it happened to work last time isn't a good criteria for selection. More and more I'm seeing over-engineered projects that took longer to build than they needed to and are currently harder to support than necessary, all because someone wanted to use their favorite tool.
pavel_lishin 9y ago
> If something breaks, it's likely going to be our own code, and much easier to diagnose and fix. But conversely, common problems and issues with frameworks are easy to find via Google and StackOverflow.
- joshribakoff 9y ago
  Plus more people are familiar with a popular open source framework than OPs. There's 100s of thousands of react devs. But only OP knows OPs framework. Most people need to use an existing framework before they try to write their own, because a lot of people try to write frameworks not knowing what frameworks actually do or what is involved.
  - pavel_lishin 9y ago
    I wonder if OP doesn't have a framework at all.
    - joshribakoff 9y ago
      Either way, the code must follow some sort of conventions or use patterns -- and if you invent your own conventions other people are less likely to understand them. Although if no one ever invented their own conventions we'd never innovate. I just think people should at least try out a bunch of frameworks before deciding they want to make one.
Klathmon 9y ago
To me this kind of thinking sounds so strange. A framework is (like it's namesake) a frame that you can build around, it's a tool that enforces restrictions on you by design. Obviously there is some overhead to learning that framework, but the idea is that the framework is built by someone who spends their day-job building the framework. They are going to do a better job of designing a framework than you will in most cases. Yes, you can build something great without them, but for any moderately sized project, you will end up re-inventing a set of rules and restrictions to apply to your own internal code. You will in-essence create your own framework. And that's fine, I'm almost positive that your "framework" will do some things very well, probably better than most of the competition, but you need to ask yourself what your main goal is. Are you setting out to build a framework? And/Or are you trying to build a product? If the answer is that you only want a working product, time spent on building your own framework is time wasted, as in my experience you will spend significantly more time writing your own from scratch than you will ever learning one. Doubly so if that framework isn't designed to be reusable at least in your organization. Not to mention the overhead of having all new devs have to learn it anyway. However if the answer is that you are setting out to build your own framework (because the current ones have a limitation that you can't deal with, or some problem that you need to solve yourself), then by all means go for it! But that can't be given as "general advice" as for many people (I'd guess most people), as they don't have those same goals as you do. Frameworks are a tool, and telling people to forgo "pre-made" tools and create them yourself is going to be the wrong advice in most cases. (but not all cases!)
- OtterCoder 9y ago
  Yes, frameworks are tools, but they're typically overspecialized and poorly designed. If vanilla JS is a cnc machine, Angular is an injection mold for a toy truck. If you're building a toy truck, that's awesome. If you're building anything else, say, a hand mixer, you're going to spend just as much time on the cnc machine trying to design toy truck whisk attachments as you would have spent just building a new mold with the incredibly powerful cnc you already have.
  - cormacrelf 9y ago

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

mfoy_ 9y ago

Framework churn sucks. It's a shame you're being down-voted, I can totally understand where you're coming from.

topbanana 9y ago
It does, but that doesn't mean you can't choose a decent stack and stick with it
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- scaryclam 9y ago
  Shouldn't we be looking at the task at hand and picking the best tool for the job though? Using a framework because it happened to work last time isn't a good criteria for selection. More and more I'm seeing over-engineered projects that took longer to build than they needed to and are currently harder to support than necessary, all because someone wanted to use their favorite tool.

pavel_lishin 9y ago

> If something breaks, it's likely going to be our own code, and much easier to diagnose and fix. But conversely, common problems and issues with frameworks are easy to find via Google and StackOverflow.

joshribakoff 9y ago
Plus more people are familiar with a popular open source framework than OPs. There's 100s of thousands of react devs. But only OP knows OPs framework. Most people need to use an existing framework before they try to write their own, because a lot of people try to write frameworks not knowing what frameworks actually do or what is involved.
- pavel_lishin 9y ago
  I wonder if OP doesn't have a framework at all.
  - joshribakoff 9y ago
    Either way, the code must follow some sort of conventions or use patterns -- and if you invent your own conventions other people are less likely to understand them. Although if no one ever invented their own conventions we'd never innovate. I just think people should at least try out a bunch of frameworks before deciding they want to make one.

Klathmon 9y ago

To me this kind of thinking sounds so strange. A framework is (like it's namesake) a frame that you can build around, it's a tool that enforces restrictions on you by design. Obviously there is some overhead to learning that framework, but the idea is that the framework is built by someone who spends their day-job building the framework. They are going to do a better job of designing a framework than you will in most cases. Yes, you can build something great without them, but for any moderately sized project, you will end up re-inventing a set of rules and restrictions to apply to your own internal code. You will in-essence create your own framework. And that's fine, I'm almost positive that your "framework" will do some things very well, probably better than most of the competition, but you need to ask yourself what your main goal is. Are you setting out to build a framework? And/Or are you trying to build a product? If the answer is that you only want a working product, time spent on building your own framework is time wasted, as in my experience you will spend significantly more time writing your own from scratch than you will ever learning one. Doubly so if that framework isn't designed to be reusable at least in your organization. Not to mention the overhead of having all new devs have to learn it anyway. However if the answer is that you are setting out to build your own framework (because the current ones have a limitation that you can't deal with, or some problem that you need to solve yourself), then by all means go for it! But that can't be given as "general advice" as for many people (I'd guess most people), as they don't have those same goals as you do. Frameworks are a tool, and telling people to forgo "pre-made" tools and create them yourself is going to be the wrong advice in most cases. (but not all cases!)

OtterCoder 9y ago
Yes, frameworks are tools, but they're typically overspecialized and poorly designed. If vanilla JS is a cnc machine, Angular is an injection mold for a toy truck. If you're building a toy truck, that's awesome. If you're building anything else, say, a hand mixer, you're going to spend just as much time on the cnc machine trying to design toy truck whisk attachments as you would have spent just building a new mold with the incredibly powerful cnc you already have.
- cormacrelf 9y ago