5 ms·

I'm from Barcelona so I'm probably biased There are about half of the population of Catalonia that doesn't agree with you. but I still can't understand how ho

by narag 9y ago

I'm from Barcelona so I'm probably biased There are about half of the population of Catalonia that doesn't agree with you. but I still can't understand how holding a referendum can be illegal in a modern democracy. This is not a referendum to ask about sideways width. It's about asking people if they want to commit a crime: secession. Some say that Catalunya can't decide whether they want to be a country, and I don't understand that neither It's very simple. Constitution says that sovereignty is in the nation as a whole, so a part of the nation can't simply vote to leave. That's the case for most civilized countries, so hardly a surprise. This is like saying that Brexit should have been voted by all Europeans. No, it's not. You are comparing denouncing an international treaty with trying to overcome the government. Is there any legal technicality that I'm missing? No, you are missing the elephant in the room.

Oletros 9y ago
> There are about half of the population of Catalonia that doesn't agree with you. By the way, polls show that people in favor of having a referendum is majority. A lot of people agree to have a referendum when they themselves would vote no to independence. They are different things > This is not a referendum to ask about sideways width. It's about asking people if they want to commit a crime: secession. Secession is a crime? Tried Scotland or Quebec to commit a crime? Czech Republic and Slovakia are criminals?
- icebraining 9y ago
  Secession is a crime? Tried Scotland or Quebec to commit a crime? Czech Republic and Slovakia are criminals? I'm not opposed to the referendum, but those places are not under the rule of the Spanish constitution.
- hectorlorenzo 9y ago
  You have to consider the circumstances under which the Spanish Constitution was written. Franco had died, and after years of dictatorship and repression, the government was afraid of exactly this: separatism. So I guess that as a concession to the still strong fascist powers, the Constitution stated that is a crime to attempt to break the "the indissoluble unity of the Spanish nation". This doesn't make sense in the 21st century, I think, but that's the way it is.
  - narag 9y ago
    Guess what part of Spain voted massively yes to the current constitution.
  - notspanishflu 9y ago
    Please, don't try to rewrite History. The Spanish Constitution is based in a very broad agreement, from Communists to the Far-Right Wing. Then that agreement (the Constitution) was voted by all the Spanish People and received an immense support. See the table here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_constitutional_referendum,_1978 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_constitutional_referen...
    - arximboldi 9y ago
      The Spanish people voted yes to democracy, not to the constitution. The communist party supported it because it feared continuing to be illegal otherwise, and it is an issue that still causes them a lot of division. My generation did not vote for the constitution, and many of us dislike it. I agree that it is a conservative constitution made out of fear, with a flawed electoral system, a king, etc. The same fear that the party in power, lineage of the dictators, uses to address our aging population. "Mejor malo conocido que bueno por conocer" (Better a known bad than the good that is jet to be known) is the worst Spanish saying. I am Andalusian and pro-referendum.
      - narag 9y ago
        The Spanish people voted yes to democracy, not to the constitution. Please don't spread misinformation. You're confusing the referendum for politic reform of 1976 with the constitution of 1978. BOTH were voted in national referendum by free, direct and secret vote. If you were suggesting that people didn't vote freely because fear, you are wrong. My generation did not vote for the constitution, and many of us dislike it. That's OK. There are, in the constitution itself a sort of ways to ammend it. If you have enough votes, you can do mostly everything.
    - occamrazor 9y ago
      I don't see a contradiction with GP post. As part of this broad agreement, the right and center-right forces request of indivisibility of Spain was included in the Constitution.
- narag 9y ago
  Secession is a crime? You are confusing two meanings of the word. There is the meaning of breaking a country for whatever reasons. Like Sudan, or the USSR or Yugoslavia. There is another meaning: the crime of secession that tries to break a country by force and against its legitimate authorities, that often ends in a blood bath. First meaning is not the same as the second.
  - icebraining 9y ago
    You're missing the case of trying to break the country by force against its illegitimate authorities, otherwise how would you classify East Timor?
    - narag 9y ago
      OK. The thing is there's nothing illegitimate in this case. Spanish authorities have full legitimacy. We are a standard democracy, integrated in EU and NATO since the eighties, our ellections are clean and our 1978 constitution was widely praised at the time for being a cornerstone of national reconcilliation. The national government is held by PP, a right-wing party where a lot of corruption cases surfaced recently. There is much pressure about this, but the reality is that the prime minister was voted by a majority of parliament, so... On the other hand, the referendum organizers voted it in an illegitimate regional parlament session. The regional president's party has been also corrupted to the roots. They were trying to hide it all behind all this adventure.
hectorlorenzo 9y ago
The elephant in the room being?
- narag 9y ago
  The elephant in the room being? The elephant in the room is what I just wrote. A referendum to vote to commit a crime is a crime. And secession is not a walk in the park. Spanish government passivity might have given that impression, but at some moment, it seems to be now, things will start to get very serious.
  - Oletros 9y ago
    I repeat, why secession is a crime?
    - gasull 9y ago
      By Spanish law secession is a crime. We can argue if it should be a crime. I think it shouldn't.
    - sornars 9y ago
      Because it violates the Spanish constitution as ruled by Spanish courts (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/02/catalonia-secession-unconstitutional-spanish-court https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/02/catalonia-sece...). The follow up argument is the government has the power to amend the constitution but it currently has no interest in doing so. If Catalans want to secede they must first convince their (national) politicians to amend the consitution to make secession legal and then hold a referendum on secession itself.
arien 9y ago
What about the Scottish Referendum then?
- lukasm 9y ago
  UK is an union of countries. Spain is not.
- philipov 9y ago
  Different countries, different histories, different legal traditions. Scotland is a nation in the British Commonwealth, not a province (shire) of the nation of England. Aragon and Catalonia did not follow the same pattern.
  - jordic 9y ago
    Catalonia had been a nation since the 10th century. Spanish gov doesn't want a referendum because their are afraid on loose....
    - philipov 9y ago
      Yes, England retained the nationalities of the kingdoms it absorbed and became a multinational state, whereas Spain followed more absolutist traditions and wanted not just fealty but complete assimilation. Scotland remained a nation after regal unification, whereas the nationhood of Catalonia is past tense, and therefore secession has significantly different legal ramifications in their respective empires.
      - jordic 9y ago
        The problem is that for spainyards Catalonia is just the old and rich colony. And they want to continue plunde it :( If you look at a map you will understand the reason for why spain wants to hide and prevent a referendum.
        kgwgk 9y ago
icebraining 9y ago
There are about half of the population of Catalonia that doesn't agree with you. They don't agree with independence, or with having a referendum at all? Just curious, I haven't been following it closely.
- narag 9y ago
  With independence. There are some more that want the referendum, but frankly I think that's silly. When a lot of corruption cases started to arise a few years ago, the local govern party had to ally with a far left separatist organization that demanded the referendum. So here we are.
  - icebraining 9y ago
    I'm generally aware of the shadiness, but lots of things have sordid origins, I don't think that's a definitive argument against it. Corruption in politics is unfortunately not exactly a rare occurrence here in the Iberian Peninsula.
JaumeGreen 9y ago
The elephant in the room is that the main parties in the Spanish goverment are using this independence process as a smokescreen to hide all their wrongdoings. There have been plenty of scandals, but all are hidden because of this. Also there is a complete blockage to alter the constitution and there's no negotiation on their part to open the process and make it more inclusive. They are using Catalans as scapegoats in order to win votes in other regions, as they have always done. I'm seriously tired of being treated, by the Spanish press -guided by the main parties-, as an insolidary nutjob that doesn't conform to the rules. Specially when Catalonia is one of the most solidary regions (giving more to the state than we receive). But we are "guilty" of speaking another language, of thinking differently, of voting differently, of whatever shit they dare accuse us. I'm sick of it all. And I'm not into politics, so I cannot fathom how burned are the people that are into politics.
- hectorlorenzo 9y ago
  Ah, yes, I completely agree with you. I haven't been living in Spain for some time now, and every time I go back I'm horrified by the tension between Catalonia and the rest of Spain. It's like a mild Civil War all over again. The worst is the unspoken tension that this has created between me and my Spanish friends.
  - notspanishflu 9y ago
    It is worse the tension between Catalans.
  - victornomad 9y ago
    I agree with you. Im southern Spanish who lived and studied in Barcelona. Have lots of very good friends in Catalunya who somehow I'm loosing because of this situation. I'm quite sad :(
- Oletros 9y ago
  > The elephant in the room is that the main parties in the Spanish goverment are using this independence process as a smokescreen to hide all their wrongdoings. Don't forget PDECAT, for them it is also a smokescreen
jordic 9y ago
That's not clear that there is a 50 % of people that don't want the independence, and anyway the referendum is the only way to check if the independence is the way for the majority.
adamc 9y ago
I am reminded of (fake) Franklin quote in the movie 1776: A rebellion is always legal in the first person, such as "our rebellion." It is only in the third person - "their rebellion" - that it becomes illegal.

by narag 9y ago

Oletros 9y ago

> There are about half of the population of Catalonia that doesn't agree with you. By the way, polls show that people in favor of having a referendum is majority. A lot of people agree to have a referendum when they themselves would vote no to independence. They are different things > This is not a referendum to ask about sideways width. It's about asking people if they want to commit a crime: secession. Secession is a crime? Tried Scotland or Quebec to commit a crime? Czech Republic and Slovakia are criminals?

icebraining 9y ago
Secession is a crime? Tried Scotland or Quebec to commit a crime? Czech Republic and Slovakia are criminals? I'm not opposed to the referendum, but those places are not under the rule of the Spanish constitution.
hectorlorenzo 9y ago
You have to consider the circumstances under which the Spanish Constitution was written. Franco had died, and after years of dictatorship and repression, the government was afraid of exactly this: separatism. So I guess that as a concession to the still strong fascist powers, the Constitution stated that is a crime to attempt to break the "the indissoluble unity of the Spanish nation". This doesn't make sense in the 21st century, I think, but that's the way it is.
- narag 9y ago
  Guess what part of Spain voted massively yes to the current constitution.
- notspanishflu 9y ago
  Please, don't try to rewrite History. The Spanish Constitution is based in a very broad agreement, from Communists to the Far-Right Wing. Then that agreement (the Constitution) was voted by all the Spanish People and received an immense support. See the table here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_constitutional_referendum,_1978 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_constitutional_referen...
  - arximboldi 9y ago
    The Spanish people voted yes to democracy, not to the constitution. The communist party supported it because it feared continuing to be illegal otherwise, and it is an issue that still causes them a lot of division. My generation did not vote for the constitution, and many of us dislike it. I agree that it is a conservative constitution made out of fear, with a flawed electoral system, a king, etc. The same fear that the party in power, lineage of the dictators, uses to address our aging population. "Mejor malo conocido que bueno por conocer" (Better a known bad than the good that is jet to be known) is the worst Spanish saying. I am Andalusian and pro-referendum.
    - narag 9y ago
      The Spanish people voted yes to democracy, not to the constitution. Please don't spread misinformation. You're confusing the referendum for politic reform of 1976 with the constitution of 1978. BOTH were voted in national referendum by free, direct and secret vote. If you were suggesting that people didn't vote freely because fear, you are wrong. My generation did not vote for the constitution, and many of us dislike it. That's OK. There are, in the constitution itself a sort of ways to ammend it. If you have enough votes, you can do mostly everything.
  - occamrazor 9y ago
    I don't see a contradiction with GP post. As part of this broad agreement, the right and center-right forces request of indivisibility of Spain was included in the Constitution.
narag 9y ago
Secession is a crime? You are confusing two meanings of the word. There is the meaning of breaking a country for whatever reasons. Like Sudan, or the USSR or Yugoslavia. There is another meaning: the crime of secession that tries to break a country by force and against its legitimate authorities, that often ends in a blood bath. First meaning is not the same as the second.
- icebraining 9y ago
  You're missing the case of trying to break the country by force against its illegitimate authorities, otherwise how would you classify East Timor?
  - narag 9y ago
    OK. The thing is there's nothing illegitimate in this case. Spanish authorities have full legitimacy. We are a standard democracy, integrated in EU and NATO since the eighties, our ellections are clean and our 1978 constitution was widely praised at the time for being a cornerstone of national reconcilliation. The national government is held by PP, a right-wing party where a lot of corruption cases surfaced recently. There is much pressure about this, but the reality is that the prime minister was voted by a majority of parliament, so... On the other hand, the referendum organizers voted it in an illegitimate regional parlament session. The regional president's party has been also corrupted to the roots. They were trying to hide it all behind all this adventure.

hectorlorenzo 9y ago

The elephant in the room being?

narag 9y ago
The elephant in the room being? The elephant in the room is what I just wrote. A referendum to vote to commit a crime is a crime. And secession is not a walk in the park. Spanish government passivity might have given that impression, but at some moment, it seems to be now, things will start to get very serious.
- Oletros 9y ago
  I repeat, why secession is a crime?
  - gasull 9y ago
    By Spanish law secession is a crime. We can argue if it should be a crime. I think it shouldn't.
  - sornars 9y ago
    Because it violates the Spanish constitution as ruled by Spanish courts (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/02/catalonia-secession-unconstitutional-spanish-court https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/02/catalonia-sece...). The follow up argument is the government has the power to amend the constitution but it currently has no interest in doing so. If Catalans want to secede they must first convince their (national) politicians to amend the consitution to make secession legal and then hold a referendum on secession itself.

arien 9y ago

What about the Scottish Referendum then?

lukasm 9y ago
UK is an union of countries. Spain is not.
philipov 9y ago
Different countries, different histories, different legal traditions. Scotland is a nation in the British Commonwealth, not a province (shire) of the nation of England. Aragon and Catalonia did not follow the same pattern.
- jordic 9y ago
  Catalonia had been a nation since the 10th century. Spanish gov doesn't want a referendum because their are afraid on loose....
  - philipov 9y ago
    Yes, England retained the nationalities of the kingdoms it absorbed and became a multinational state, whereas Spain followed more absolutist traditions and wanted not just fealty but complete assimilation. Scotland remained a nation after regal unification, whereas the nationhood of Catalonia is past tense, and therefore secession has significantly different legal ramifications in their respective empires.
    - jordic 9y ago
      The problem is that for spainyards Catalonia is just the old and rich colony. And they want to continue plunde it :( If you look at a map you will understand the reason for why spain wants to hide and prevent a referendum.
      - kgwgk 9y ago

icebraining 9y ago

There are about half of the population of Catalonia that doesn't agree with you. They don't agree with independence, or with having a referendum at all? Just curious, I haven't been following it closely.

narag 9y ago
With independence. There are some more that want the referendum, but frankly I think that's silly. When a lot of corruption cases started to arise a few years ago, the local govern party had to ally with a far left separatist organization that demanded the referendum. So here we are.
- icebraining 9y ago
  I'm generally aware of the shadiness, but lots of things have sordid origins, I don't think that's a definitive argument against it. Corruption in politics is unfortunately not exactly a rare occurrence here in the Iberian Peninsula.

JaumeGreen 9y ago

The elephant in the room is that the main parties in the Spanish goverment are using this independence process as a smokescreen to hide all their wrongdoings. There have been plenty of scandals, but all are hidden because of this. Also there is a complete blockage to alter the constitution and there's no negotiation on their part to open the process and make it more inclusive. They are using Catalans as scapegoats in order to win votes in other regions, as they have always done. I'm seriously tired of being treated, by the Spanish press -guided by the main parties-, as an insolidary nutjob that doesn't conform to the rules. Specially when Catalonia is one of the most solidary regions (giving more to the state than we receive). But we are "guilty" of speaking another language, of thinking differently, of voting differently, of whatever shit they dare accuse us. I'm sick of it all. And I'm not into politics, so I cannot fathom how burned are the people that are into politics.

hectorlorenzo 9y ago
Ah, yes, I completely agree with you. I haven't been living in Spain for some time now, and every time I go back I'm horrified by the tension between Catalonia and the rest of Spain. It's like a mild Civil War all over again. The worst is the unspoken tension that this has created between me and my Spanish friends.
- notspanishflu 9y ago
  It is worse the tension between Catalans.
- victornomad 9y ago
  I agree with you. Im southern Spanish who lived and studied in Barcelona. Have lots of very good friends in Catalunya who somehow I'm loosing because of this situation. I'm quite sad :(
Oletros 9y ago
> The elephant in the room is that the main parties in the Spanish goverment are using this independence process as a smokescreen to hide all their wrongdoings. Don't forget PDECAT, for them it is also a smokescreen

jordic 9y ago

That's not clear that there is a 50 % of people that don't want the independence, and anyway the referendum is the only way to check if the independence is the way for the majority.

adamc 9y ago

I am reminded of (fake) Franklin quote in the movie 1776: A rebellion is always legal in the first person, such as "our rebellion." It is only in the third person - "their rebellion" - that it becomes illegal.