7 ms·

I'm from Barcelona so I'm probably biased, but I still can't understand how holding a referendum can be illegal in a modern democracy. I'm asking honestly, this

I'm from Barcelona so I'm probably biased, but I still can't understand how holding a referendum can be illegal in a modern democracy. I'm asking honestly, this is not rhetorical. Some say that Catalunya can't decide whether they want to be a country, and I don't understand that neither. This is like saying that Brexit should have been voted by all Europeans. Is there any legal technicality that I'm missing? I guess that a country is more sovereign over their regions than the EU over their members, but still...

igor_filippov 9y ago
I'm from Crimea and I don't get this either.
notspanishflu 9y ago
The government of Catalonia can hold a referendum following the Law. The problem here is that the government of Catalonia is not following even their own regional laws approved by them, not to mention the Spanish Constitution. The secessionists have even forbidden the opposition to participate in the debates in the Parliament of Catalonia. Edit to add: it is not the same a country willing to participate in an union and then deciding to leave it, than a movement in a nation (Spain) where some people in there decide they want to transform a part of Spain in an independent nation. Remember also that Catalonia has never been a nation.
- mas886 9y ago
  Seeing how things are going for a REFERENDUM, do you think they will ever allow catalans to make a legal referendum as long as we are in Spain?
- tertius 9y ago
  You should explain this in a main comment that hopefully gets upvoted to the top.
  - notspanishflu 9y ago
    Done, thank you for the advice.
  - jordic 9y ago
    Not true. It's a troll comment from unionism.
    - tertius 9y ago
      Then refute it. That's how speech works. Saying "it's wrong" is meaningless.
- jordic 9y ago
  That's not true. Catalonia had been a nation since before Spain. Catalan government is just trying to do a referendum to check if independence makes sense. Spanish gov is affraid of checking it because they know what can happen. On Spanish history there is a rule.. saying that Barcelona had to be attacked with bombs from time to time to have them quiet.
  - notspanishflu 9y ago
    See? That's the problem. If you truly believe this lie "Catalonia had been a nation since before Spain" then you've decided to close your eyes to History, and there's nothing I can say to change your mind.
    - jordic 9y ago
      I think you had studied only the Spanish history O_O. You need to look for alandulus, la marca hispana and països catalans at Google... :)
      - notspanishflu 9y ago
        You have called me troll in another comment but when someone ask for reputable sources your answer is 'google it'.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
narag 9y ago
I'm from Barcelona so I'm probably biased There are about half of the population of Catalonia that doesn't agree with you. but I still can't understand how holding a referendum can be illegal in a modern democracy. This is not a referendum to ask about sideways width. It's about asking people if they want to commit a crime: secession. Some say that Catalunya can't decide whether they want to be a country, and I don't understand that neither It's very simple. Constitution says that sovereignty is in the nation as a whole, so a part of the nation can't simply vote to leave. That's the case for most civilized countries, so hardly a surprise. This is like saying that Brexit should have been voted by all Europeans. No, it's not. You are comparing denouncing an international treaty with trying to overcome the government. Is there any legal technicality that I'm missing? No, you are missing the elephant in the room.
- Oletros 9y ago
  > There are about half of the population of Catalonia that doesn't agree with you. By the way, polls show that people in favor of having a referendum is majority. A lot of people agree to have a referendum when they themselves would vote no to independence. They are different things > This is not a referendum to ask about sideways width. It's about asking people if they want to commit a crime: secession. Secession is a crime? Tried Scotland or Quebec to commit a crime? Czech Republic and Slovakia are criminals?
  - icebraining 9y ago
    Secession is a crime? Tried Scotland or Quebec to commit a crime? Czech Republic and Slovakia are criminals? I'm not opposed to the referendum, but those places are not under the rule of the Spanish constitution.
  - hectorlorenzo 9y ago
    You have to consider the circumstances under which the Spanish Constitution was written. Franco had died, and after years of dictatorship and repression, the government was afraid of exactly this: separatism. So I guess that as a concession to the still strong fascist powers, the Constitution stated that is a crime to attempt to break the "the indissoluble unity of the Spanish nation". This doesn't make sense in the 21st century, I think, but that's the way it is.
RA_Fisher 9y ago
Freedom and liberty is usually opposed through legalism. I think the desire for self-determination is just and admirable.
- notspanishflu 9y ago
  Then explain me why the same arguments to separate Catalonia from Spain can't be applied to separate Barcelona from Catalonia.
  - Oletros 9y ago
    Why not? Is Barcelona people demanding it?
    - notspanishflu 9y ago
      It's explicitly forbidden in the (illegal) new law the Parliament of Catalonia is trying to impose.
      - icebraining 9y ago
        Just because one supports the referendum doesn't mean one supports anything else the Parliament of Catalonia is doing, though.
  - hectorlorenzo 9y ago
    This is the next step ;)
  - trevyn 9y ago
    Then explain me why the same arguments to separate Barcelona from Catalonia can't be applied to separate my house from Barcelona.
JTechno 9y ago
Look at it from this point: I'm an spanish citizen thereby granted to have free access to all national territory. If just catalan people is allowed to vote, then they are depriving me, and other spanish citizens, from the right to freely visit/live/work in catalonia.
- notspanishflu 9y ago
  Is not only that. The article 1.2 of the Spanish Constitution clearly states: "The national sovereignty resides in the Spanish people, from whom all the powers of the state emanate." All Spanish people have the right to decide about all the things in Spain, not just a bunch of people.
  - gerardnll 9y ago
    The same way you choose to divorce with somebody. You don’t let your partner choose whether he lets you break up with him/her or not. If some workers had followed the law maybe you would still work for 12 hours and a shitty salary (now that i think... this still aplies now)
    - notspanishflu 9y ago
      Yeah, try to get a divorce without respecting the Law.
    - JTechno 9y ago
      You are mixing apples with pears. Some people are willing to take possession of a piece of land that is not theirs.
- antaviana 9y ago
  OK. I will try. I am a EU citizen thereby granted to have free access to all EU territory. If just UK people is allowed to vote, then they are depriving me, and other EU citizens, from the right to freely visit/live/work in UK.
  - 9y ago

igor_filippov 9y ago

I'm from Crimea and I don't get this either.

notspanishflu 9y ago

The government of Catalonia can hold a referendum following the Law. The problem here is that the government of Catalonia is not following even their own regional laws approved by them, not to mention the Spanish Constitution. The secessionists have even forbidden the opposition to participate in the debates in the Parliament of Catalonia. Edit to add: it is not the same a country willing to participate in an union and then deciding to leave it, than a movement in a nation (Spain) where some people in there decide they want to transform a part of Spain in an independent nation. Remember also that Catalonia has never been a nation.

mas886 9y ago
Seeing how things are going for a REFERENDUM, do you think they will ever allow catalans to make a legal referendum as long as we are in Spain?
tertius 9y ago
You should explain this in a main comment that hopefully gets upvoted to the top.
- notspanishflu 9y ago
  Done, thank you for the advice.
- jordic 9y ago
  Not true. It's a troll comment from unionism.
  - tertius 9y ago
    Then refute it. That's how speech works. Saying "it's wrong" is meaningless.
jordic 9y ago
That's not true. Catalonia had been a nation since before Spain. Catalan government is just trying to do a referendum to check if independence makes sense. Spanish gov is affraid of checking it because they know what can happen. On Spanish history there is a rule.. saying that Barcelona had to be attacked with bombs from time to time to have them quiet.
- notspanishflu 9y ago
  See? That's the problem. If you truly believe this lie "Catalonia had been a nation since before Spain" then you've decided to close your eyes to History, and there's nothing I can say to change your mind.
  - jordic 9y ago
    I think you had studied only the Spanish history O_O. You need to look for alandulus, la marca hispana and països catalans at Google... :)
    - notspanishflu 9y ago
      You have called me troll in another comment but when someone ask for reputable sources your answer is 'google it'.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

narag 9y ago

I'm from Barcelona so I'm probably biased There are about half of the population of Catalonia that doesn't agree with you. but I still can't understand how holding a referendum can be illegal in a modern democracy. This is not a referendum to ask about sideways width. It's about asking people if they want to commit a crime: secession. Some say that Catalunya can't decide whether they want to be a country, and I don't understand that neither It's very simple. Constitution says that sovereignty is in the nation as a whole, so a part of the nation can't simply vote to leave. That's the case for most civilized countries, so hardly a surprise. This is like saying that Brexit should have been voted by all Europeans. No, it's not. You are comparing denouncing an international treaty with trying to overcome the government. Is there any legal technicality that I'm missing? No, you are missing the elephant in the room.

Oletros 9y ago
> There are about half of the population of Catalonia that doesn't agree with you. By the way, polls show that people in favor of having a referendum is majority. A lot of people agree to have a referendum when they themselves would vote no to independence. They are different things > This is not a referendum to ask about sideways width. It's about asking people if they want to commit a crime: secession. Secession is a crime? Tried Scotland or Quebec to commit a crime? Czech Republic and Slovakia are criminals?
- icebraining 9y ago
  Secession is a crime? Tried Scotland or Quebec to commit a crime? Czech Republic and Slovakia are criminals? I'm not opposed to the referendum, but those places are not under the rule of the Spanish constitution.
- hectorlorenzo 9y ago
  You have to consider the circumstances under which the Spanish Constitution was written. Franco had died, and after years of dictatorship and repression, the government was afraid of exactly this: separatism. So I guess that as a concession to the still strong fascist powers, the Constitution stated that is a crime to attempt to break the "the indissoluble unity of the Spanish nation". This doesn't make sense in the 21st century, I think, but that's the way it is.

RA_Fisher 9y ago

Freedom and liberty is usually opposed through legalism. I think the desire for self-determination is just and admirable.

notspanishflu 9y ago
Then explain me why the same arguments to separate Catalonia from Spain can't be applied to separate Barcelona from Catalonia.
- Oletros 9y ago
  Why not? Is Barcelona people demanding it?
  - notspanishflu 9y ago
    It's explicitly forbidden in the (illegal) new law the Parliament of Catalonia is trying to impose.
    - icebraining 9y ago
      Just because one supports the referendum doesn't mean one supports anything else the Parliament of Catalonia is doing, though.
- hectorlorenzo 9y ago
  This is the next step ;)
- trevyn 9y ago
  Then explain me why the same arguments to separate Barcelona from Catalonia can't be applied to separate my house from Barcelona.

JTechno 9y ago

Look at it from this point: I'm an spanish citizen thereby granted to have free access to all national territory. If just catalan people is allowed to vote, then they are depriving me, and other spanish citizens, from the right to freely visit/live/work in catalonia.

notspanishflu 9y ago
Is not only that. The article 1.2 of the Spanish Constitution clearly states: "The national sovereignty resides in the Spanish people, from whom all the powers of the state emanate." All Spanish people have the right to decide about all the things in Spain, not just a bunch of people.
- gerardnll 9y ago
  The same way you choose to divorce with somebody. You don’t let your partner choose whether he lets you break up with him/her or not. If some workers had followed the law maybe you would still work for 12 hours and a shitty salary (now that i think... this still aplies now)
  - notspanishflu 9y ago
    Yeah, try to get a divorce without respecting the Law.
  - JTechno 9y ago
    You are mixing apples with pears. Some people are willing to take possession of a piece of land that is not theirs.
antaviana 9y ago
OK. I will try. I am a EU citizen thereby granted to have free access to all EU territory. If just UK people is allowed to vote, then they are depriving me, and other EU citizens, from the right to freely visit/live/work in UK.
- 9y ago