10 ms·

Spanish police doing an intervention in Fundació puntCAT office

84 points by nmc 9y ago

robin_reala 9y ago
For more back story in English, The Guardian have an article today on the police raids in the run up to the Catalan independence referendum: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/20/spain-guardia-civil-raid-catalan-government-hq-referendum-row https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/20/spain-guardia-... Also, see the (potentially biased) en.Wikipedia article on the referendum: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_referendum,_2017 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_referendu...
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
diggan 9y ago
In short, for the people who don't have the back story. Catalunya wants to hold a independence referendum, Spanish Judicial System says it's illegal to hold a referendum. Catalan politicians are pushing forward anyways. Before the weekend, the Spanish Judicial System gave a warning to anyone who helps spreading material about the referendum, or is involved in any way. Catalans are still pushing forward to hold the vote on the 1st of October. This lead to this morning's arrests of mayors around Catalunya. And now, Spanish Judicial System decided that the organization behind the .cat TLD is somehow involved in the referendum as well. Previously on "Catalunya VS Spain" also includes Spanish Judicial System taking down informational websites about the referendum, such as http://referendum.pirata.cat http://referendum.pirata.cat (which is a mirror of the one which existed on http://referendum.cat http://referendum.cat but is now shut down)
- fasteo 9y ago
  We need to be careful with words here. IMHO, changing "Spanish goverment" by "Spanish Judicial System" is much more accurate. We do have a clear separation of powers in Spain.
  - diggan 9y ago
    You're right, I've updated my comment to reflect this. Thanks!
  - arximboldi 9y ago
    > We do have clear separation of powers in Spain We do have a formal one. In practice that is not so clear, as the many corruption cases show, with political use of the police included. Also they not only have declared the referendum illegal, but are persecuting everyone promoting the referendum, so much for freedom of speech. But anyways, now you get into a criminal trial for making jokes about terrorist actions from 40 years ago against Franco ministers. I am Andalusian and I'd be happy to keep Catalonian withing the Spanish state, under a federalist republic where we can move forward together. But in the current state of affairs I very much understand the independentist movement. Having a referendum is the only solution long-term and the Spanish goverment just uses legalist excuses to stop it. What they don't say is that precisely they can change the law to allow it!
    - fasteo 9y ago
      >>> We do have a formal one. In practice that is not so clear, as the many corruption cases show, with political use of the police included. I would agree that there is some leakage, but it is the exception to the rule. I would not make such a generalization. >>> Also they not only have declared the referendum illegal They have suspended the law that would allow the Catalonian goverment promote the referendum, so it is indeed illegal to promote the referendum. >>> I am Andalusian and I'd be happy to keep Catalonian withing the Spanish state Me too. I am Andalusian too.
  - jordic 9y ago
    That's not true. Actually there is no power separation on Spain. Judicial system and TC is an extra arm for the govern.
    - gasull 9y ago
      Yes, it is true. The separation of powers is similar in other Western democracies.
- jpkeisala 9y ago
  Hasn't Catalonia already had a vote like this before?
  - Oletros 9y ago
    No
  - notspanishflu 9y ago
    The secessionists tried another fake referendum in November, 9th, 2014. Now it's even more illegal. Edit: to the people downvoting this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_self-determination_referendum,_2014 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_self-determination_ref...
    - gerardnll 9y ago
      Whether it was ‘ilegal’ or ‘fake’ there is a clear desire for catalan people to vote so that’s enough to allow the referendum. Ignoring people desires saying that the constitution denies it is not a valid reason for many.
- hectorlorenzo 9y ago
  I'm from Barcelona so I'm probably biased, but I still can't understand how holding a referendum can be illegal in a modern democracy. I'm asking honestly, this is not rhetorical. Some say that Catalunya can't decide whether they want to be a country, and I don't understand that neither. This is like saying that Brexit should have been voted by all Europeans. Is there any legal technicality that I'm missing? I guess that a country is more sovereign over their regions than the EU over their members, but still...
  - igor_filippov 9y ago
    I'm from Crimea and I don't get this either.
  - notspanishflu 9y ago
    The government of Catalonia can hold a referendum following the Law. The problem here is that the government of Catalonia is not following even their own regional laws approved by them, not to mention the Spanish Constitution. The secessionists have even forbidden the opposition to participate in the debates in the Parliament of Catalonia. Edit to add: it is not the same a country willing to participate in an union and then deciding to leave it, than a movement in a nation (Spain) where some people in there decide they want to transform a part of Spain in an independent nation. Remember also that Catalonia has never been a nation.
    - mas886 9y ago
      Seeing how things are going for a REFERENDUM, do you think they will ever allow catalans to make a legal referendum as long as we are in Spain?
    - tertius 9y ago
      You should explain this in a main comment that hopefully gets upvoted to the top.
      - notspanishflu 9y ago
        Done, thank you for the advice.
rurban 9y ago
Franco is back, was the summary in German news. It was the typical fascist tactics to abuse police for such measures.
robtaylor 9y ago
There is a good indie english language publisher in Spain https://twitter.com/thespainreport https://twitter.com/thespainreport who is providing decent coverage of the ongoing issues. (I have no affiliation or connection)
- diggan 9y ago
  Guardian is going a great job as well. Here is their collection of articles about Catalunya: https://www.theguardian.com/world/catalonia https://www.theguardian.com/world/catalonia
notspanishflu 9y ago
(I repeat my comment here thanks to tertius advice). The government of Catalonia can hold a referendum following the Law. The problem here is that the government of Catalonia is not following even their own regional laws approved by them, not to mention the Spanish Constitution. The secessionists have even forbidden the opposition to participate in the debates in the Parliament of Catalonia. Remember also that Catalonia has never been a nation.
- hectorlorenzo 9y ago
  This I don't agree. Catalonia is a nation, it has never been a country. A nation doesn't require its people to live under the same government and sovereignty. Also, can you add some references to some of the more polemical claims (like "The secessionists have even forbidden the opposition to participate in the debates in the Parliament of Catalonia."). Thanks!
  - notspanishflu 9y ago
    If you can read Spanish, those news are in all newspapers.
    - hectorlorenzo 9y ago
      Yes, I can, but we are not the only ones in this room.
      - notspanishflu 9y ago
        But you're the only one asking knowing perfectly well the answer.
  - amval 9y ago
    I cannot find English sources: https://cronicaglobal.elespanol.com/politica/forcadell-pasa-de-los-servicios-juridicos-del-parlament-para-tramitar-la-ley-del-referendum_85715_102.html https://cronicaglobal.elespanol.com/politica/forcadell-pasa-... The session was televised. The oposition was constantly interrupted and not allowed to talk. They are not even respecting the laws from the catalonian parlament. But I guess they have legitimacy because they have the support of... half the catalonians? An example of democracy.
amval 9y ago
One thing that surprises me a lot is how the Catalonian secessionist movement seems to have a lot of international sympathy. Maybe because it's spinned like some kind of underdog story. The reality, however, it's different: - Catalonia is a rich, privileged region of Spain, which has benefited enormously of a huge investment in infraestructure and industry in the last decades. - The indepentist movement was fueled around outright xenophobia, accusing the central government of "stealing" Catalonians, attacking poorer regions of Spain (which are full of lazy, untrustworthy people). - In the last years, the Catalonian government has shaped their citizen perception of history, promoting nonsense like "Catalonia is a colony of Spain". An easy to disprove, but widely repeated argument. - The Catalonian government even forbade the use of Spanish to their civil servants. Which was fined by the EU. For a long time, state politic parties and catalonian parties, profited from this absurd "us against them" scenario. Now it's really out of hand, and the central government has a lot of blame in this. But I really failed to see why someone should have any sympathy for Catalonian independentism. It's certainly not based on any historical reality, their political and economic consequences are unpredictable (but I doubt that benefitial for anyone other than catalonian politicians) and it's illegal under any possible frame. I guess you could justify it if you believe in this abstract right to self-determination. I personally would have held a referendum long ago. I still think it's both stupid and immoral (it's usually the rich regions that want independence, with similar arguments).
- batushka 9y ago
  I would love to see Catalunya getting independence. Then as fresh country should make agreements with NATO and EU. So while without NATO umbrella Russia would attack and establish Novobarcelonia to protect it's oligarchs down there :D
- zmb_ 9y ago
  I have worked with half a dozen Catalans both in and outside Catalonia. All highly educated. All in favor of independence. As far as I have been able to see, they are not in any way xenophobic, or greedy, or anything else you're accusing them of here. What they do seem to be is very distinctly Catalan with their own culture, history and language, and significant grievances towards the Spanish state. I don't have an opinion on their independence, but I do find it very hard to justify denying them a right to vote on it. I do suspect the optimal way would be to negotiate a new relationship with Catalonia inside Spain, but that's just my mostly uninformed two cents on the issue. (This is just to give the other side of the argument here.)
hectorlorenzo 9y ago
To all of those wondering, attempting to break the “the indissoluble unity of the Spanish nation” is a crime according to the Spanish Constitution of 1978. Of course, you have to consider that after almost 40 years of a fascist dictatorship, anything that resembled a democratic constitution was good news, so 90% of Catalans voted in favor of these Constitution. This is the main reason why, according to the current Constitution, the current referendum is illegal.
- tertius 9y ago
  If it's so clear, what's the big deal?
maneta 9y ago
Well, this is still online: http://www.fnff.es http://www.fnff.es (Francisco Franco Foundation). And is fucking legal. Maybe Franco never really left the country...
darthdev 9y ago
Relevant: The European Commission says that they respect the decisions of the Spanish constitutional court. Source: https://twitter.com/PrensaCE/status/908707446297948160 https://twitter.com/PrensaCE/status/908707446297948160 ( English with Spanish subtitles )
- icebraining 9y ago
  Yeah, even if Catalonia somehow got their independence, they'd be probably left out of the EU, and possibly Schengen too. It's a hard pill to swallow.
gasull 9y ago
Most Catalans seem to be unaware of the financial consequences that independence would entail: Since all banks today work with fractional reserve banking, banks in Catalonia depend on the European Central Bank to keep their ATMs running. If Catalonia became an independent country and the ECB decided to cut Catalonia out the Eurozone, the corralito scenes in Catalonia will resemble those we have seen before in Cyprus and Greece.
victornomad 9y ago
As a Spaniard (southern), I fully respect that some part of the country wants to decide about their future and become independent. This is like a relationship and sometimes relationships get to an end (for whatever reason). I support their right to decide but at the same time I feel that the way this has been managed by both Catalan and Spanish governments is not going to have a good outcome :( On the other side I always had the feeling that this is just politicians willing to use this situation for their own benefit and raise votes. Instead of creating a peaceful dialogue (both sides) they just prefer to keep with the same story over and over creating more and more hate between different parts of the country... It comes to my mind a book by Chomsky (Media Control) that suggest how US has created always an enemy to have the country united and the support of the people. Borders..... such a colonial western invention and all the problems they have created.....

84 points by nmc 9y ago

For more back story in English, The Guardian have an article today on the police raids in the run up to the Catalan independence referendum: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/20/spain-guardia-civil-raid-catalan-government-hq-referendum-row https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/20/spain-guardia-... Also, see the (potentially biased) en.Wikipedia article on the referendum: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_referendum,_2017 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_referendu...

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

diggan 9y ago

In short, for the people who don't have the back story. Catalunya wants to hold a independence referendum, Spanish Judicial System says it's illegal to hold a referendum. Catalan politicians are pushing forward anyways. Before the weekend, the Spanish Judicial System gave a warning to anyone who helps spreading material about the referendum, or is involved in any way. Catalans are still pushing forward to hold the vote on the 1st of October. This lead to this morning's arrests of mayors around Catalunya. And now, Spanish Judicial System decided that the organization behind the .cat TLD is somehow involved in the referendum as well. Previously on "Catalunya VS Spain" also includes Spanish Judicial System taking down informational websites about the referendum, such as http://referendum.pirata.cat http://referendum.pirata.cat (which is a mirror of the one which existed on http://referendum.cat http://referendum.cat but is now shut down)

fasteo 9y ago
We need to be careful with words here. IMHO, changing "Spanish goverment" by "Spanish Judicial System" is much more accurate. We do have a clear separation of powers in Spain.
- diggan 9y ago
  You're right, I've updated my comment to reflect this. Thanks!
- arximboldi 9y ago
  > We do have clear separation of powers in Spain We do have a formal one. In practice that is not so clear, as the many corruption cases show, with political use of the police included. Also they not only have declared the referendum illegal, but are persecuting everyone promoting the referendum, so much for freedom of speech. But anyways, now you get into a criminal trial for making jokes about terrorist actions from 40 years ago against Franco ministers. I am Andalusian and I'd be happy to keep Catalonian withing the Spanish state, under a federalist republic where we can move forward together. But in the current state of affairs I very much understand the independentist movement. Having a referendum is the only solution long-term and the Spanish goverment just uses legalist excuses to stop it. What they don't say is that precisely they can change the law to allow it!
  - fasteo 9y ago
    >>> We do have a formal one. In practice that is not so clear, as the many corruption cases show, with political use of the police included. I would agree that there is some leakage, but it is the exception to the rule. I would not make such a generalization. >>> Also they not only have declared the referendum illegal They have suspended the law that would allow the Catalonian goverment promote the referendum, so it is indeed illegal to promote the referendum. >>> I am Andalusian and I'd be happy to keep Catalonian withing the Spanish state Me too. I am Andalusian too.
- jordic 9y ago
  That's not true. Actually there is no power separation on Spain. Judicial system and TC is an extra arm for the govern.
  - gasull 9y ago
    Yes, it is true. The separation of powers is similar in other Western democracies.
jpkeisala 9y ago
Hasn't Catalonia already had a vote like this before?
- Oletros 9y ago
  No
- notspanishflu 9y ago
  The secessionists tried another fake referendum in November, 9th, 2014. Now it's even more illegal. Edit: to the people downvoting this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_self-determination_referendum,_2014 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_self-determination_ref...
  - gerardnll 9y ago
    Whether it was ‘ilegal’ or ‘fake’ there is a clear desire for catalan people to vote so that’s enough to allow the referendum. Ignoring people desires saying that the constitution denies it is not a valid reason for many.
hectorlorenzo 9y ago
I'm from Barcelona so I'm probably biased, but I still can't understand how holding a referendum can be illegal in a modern democracy. I'm asking honestly, this is not rhetorical. Some say that Catalunya can't decide whether they want to be a country, and I don't understand that neither. This is like saying that Brexit should have been voted by all Europeans. Is there any legal technicality that I'm missing? I guess that a country is more sovereign over their regions than the EU over their members, but still...
- igor_filippov 9y ago
  I'm from Crimea and I don't get this either.
- notspanishflu 9y ago
  The government of Catalonia can hold a referendum following the Law. The problem here is that the government of Catalonia is not following even their own regional laws approved by them, not to mention the Spanish Constitution. The secessionists have even forbidden the opposition to participate in the debates in the Parliament of Catalonia. Edit to add: it is not the same a country willing to participate in an union and then deciding to leave it, than a movement in a nation (Spain) where some people in there decide they want to transform a part of Spain in an independent nation. Remember also that Catalonia has never been a nation.
  - mas886 9y ago
    Seeing how things are going for a REFERENDUM, do you think they will ever allow catalans to make a legal referendum as long as we are in Spain?
  - tertius 9y ago
    You should explain this in a main comment that hopefully gets upvoted to the top.
    - notspanishflu 9y ago
      Done, thank you for the advice.

rurban 9y ago

Franco is back, was the summary in German news. It was the typical fascist tactics to abuse police for such measures.

robtaylor 9y ago

There is a good indie english language publisher in Spain https://twitter.com/thespainreport https://twitter.com/thespainreport who is providing decent coverage of the ongoing issues. (I have no affiliation or connection)

diggan 9y ago
Guardian is going a great job as well. Here is their collection of articles about Catalunya: https://www.theguardian.com/world/catalonia https://www.theguardian.com/world/catalonia

notspanishflu 9y ago

(I repeat my comment here thanks to tertius advice). The government of Catalonia can hold a referendum following the Law. The problem here is that the government of Catalonia is not following even their own regional laws approved by them, not to mention the Spanish Constitution. The secessionists have even forbidden the opposition to participate in the debates in the Parliament of Catalonia. Remember also that Catalonia has never been a nation.

hectorlorenzo 9y ago
This I don't agree. Catalonia is a nation, it has never been a country. A nation doesn't require its people to live under the same government and sovereignty. Also, can you add some references to some of the more polemical claims (like "The secessionists have even forbidden the opposition to participate in the debates in the Parliament of Catalonia."). Thanks!
- notspanishflu 9y ago
  If you can read Spanish, those news are in all newspapers.
  - hectorlorenzo 9y ago
    Yes, I can, but we are not the only ones in this room.
    - notspanishflu 9y ago
      But you're the only one asking knowing perfectly well the answer.
- amval 9y ago
  I cannot find English sources: https://cronicaglobal.elespanol.com/politica/forcadell-pasa-de-los-servicios-juridicos-del-parlament-para-tramitar-la-ley-del-referendum_85715_102.html https://cronicaglobal.elespanol.com/politica/forcadell-pasa-... The session was televised. The oposition was constantly interrupted and not allowed to talk. They are not even respecting the laws from the catalonian parlament. But I guess they have legitimacy because they have the support of... half the catalonians? An example of democracy.

amval 9y ago

One thing that surprises me a lot is how the Catalonian secessionist movement seems to have a lot of international sympathy. Maybe because it's spinned like some kind of underdog story. The reality, however, it's different: - Catalonia is a rich, privileged region of Spain, which has benefited enormously of a huge investment in infraestructure and industry in the last decades. - The indepentist movement was fueled around outright xenophobia, accusing the central government of "stealing" Catalonians, attacking poorer regions of Spain (which are full of lazy, untrustworthy people). - In the last years, the Catalonian government has shaped their citizen perception of history, promoting nonsense like "Catalonia is a colony of Spain". An easy to disprove, but widely repeated argument. - The Catalonian government even forbade the use of Spanish to their civil servants. Which was fined by the EU. For a long time, state politic parties and catalonian parties, profited from this absurd "us against them" scenario. Now it's really out of hand, and the central government has a lot of blame in this. But I really failed to see why someone should have any sympathy for Catalonian independentism. It's certainly not based on any historical reality, their political and economic consequences are unpredictable (but I doubt that benefitial for anyone other than catalonian politicians) and it's illegal under any possible frame. I guess you could justify it if you believe in this abstract right to self-determination. I personally would have held a referendum long ago. I still think it's both stupid and immoral (it's usually the rich regions that want independence, with similar arguments).

batushka 9y ago
I would love to see Catalunya getting independence. Then as fresh country should make agreements with NATO and EU. So while without NATO umbrella Russia would attack and establish Novobarcelonia to protect it's oligarchs down there :D
zmb_ 9y ago
I have worked with half a dozen Catalans both in and outside Catalonia. All highly educated. All in favor of independence. As far as I have been able to see, they are not in any way xenophobic, or greedy, or anything else you're accusing them of here. What they do seem to be is very distinctly Catalan with their own culture, history and language, and significant grievances towards the Spanish state. I don't have an opinion on their independence, but I do find it very hard to justify denying them a right to vote on it. I do suspect the optimal way would be to negotiate a new relationship with Catalonia inside Spain, but that's just my mostly uninformed two cents on the issue. (This is just to give the other side of the argument here.)

hectorlorenzo 9y ago

To all of those wondering, attempting to break the “the indissoluble unity of the Spanish nation” is a crime according to the Spanish Constitution of 1978. Of course, you have to consider that after almost 40 years of a fascist dictatorship, anything that resembled a democratic constitution was good news, so 90% of Catalans voted in favor of these Constitution. This is the main reason why, according to the current Constitution, the current referendum is illegal.

tertius 9y ago
If it's so clear, what's the big deal?

maneta 9y ago

Well, this is still online: http://www.fnff.es http://www.fnff.es (Francisco Franco Foundation). And is fucking legal. Maybe Franco never really left the country...

darthdev 9y ago

Relevant: The European Commission says that they respect the decisions of the Spanish constitutional court. Source: https://twitter.com/PrensaCE/status/908707446297948160 https://twitter.com/PrensaCE/status/908707446297948160 ( English with Spanish subtitles )

icebraining 9y ago
Yeah, even if Catalonia somehow got their independence, they'd be probably left out of the EU, and possibly Schengen too. It's a hard pill to swallow.

gasull 9y ago

Most Catalans seem to be unaware of the financial consequences that independence would entail: Since all banks today work with fractional reserve banking, banks in Catalonia depend on the European Central Bank to keep their ATMs running. If Catalonia became an independent country and the ECB decided to cut Catalonia out the Eurozone, the corralito scenes in Catalonia will resemble those we have seen before in Cyprus and Greece.

victornomad 9y ago

As a Spaniard (southern), I fully respect that some part of the country wants to decide about their future and become independent. This is like a relationship and sometimes relationships get to an end (for whatever reason). I support their right to decide but at the same time I feel that the way this has been managed by both Catalan and Spanish governments is not going to have a good outcome :( On the other side I always had the feeling that this is just politicians willing to use this situation for their own benefit and raise votes. Instead of creating a peaceful dialogue (both sides) they just prefer to keep with the same story over and over creating more and more hate between different parts of the country... It comes to my mind a book by Chomsky (Media Control) that suggest how US has created always an enemy to have the country united and the support of the people. Borders..... such a colonial western invention and all the problems they have created.....