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No. the universe isn't conscious. The universe is matter. Consciousness is a part of the universe. Therefore consciousness is simply material. Nothing more, not

No. the universe isn't conscious. The universe is matter. Consciousness is a part of the universe. Therefore consciousness is simply material. Nothing more, nothing less. It's just that our egos are too big to accept that we are nothing more than dirt.

sjeohp 9y ago
No. the universe isn't math. The universe is matter. Math is a part of the universe. Therefore math is simply material. Nothing more, nothing less.
- thevardanian 9y ago
  Math isn't anything but matter. Math is just another thought construct. A powerful thought construct, but a thought construct nonetheless. As a thought construct it too is material. The electronic impulses on you computer are no different than the ones in your brain. So yes. Math is also a material manifestation. Life is a material manifestation. Thought is a material manifestation. The problem is with you trying to separate yourself from matter, but the very thing you're using to create that separation is thought. It is the very thing you're trying to get away from, and so you cannot exist separate from thought by using thought. It is a futile and empty game.
  - Sawamara 9y ago
    Ideas are not material. Even if they are stored in material brains. Especially not when they can be independently rediscovered without having any trace of them stored anywhere.
    - narag 9y ago
      Ideas are not material, but thevardanian has a point in the context of this thread. Unless you believe in some kind of supernatural force, all you have is matter and matter-based thought. Ideas are not material but they still need a brain to be held. And a very conscious one. About rediscovering, you can simply argue that ideas are matter properties so an intelligent being can recognize them.
      - thevardanian 9y ago
        You can not distinguish ideas from material reality. That is sensory perception, and your ideas that result are basically the accumulation of material structures, or simply knowledge. So ideas are not anything more than the knowledge that you have which interprets, and reinterprets the sensory perception.
        language 9y ago
        Is difference (the distinction in question) something intrinsic to the world, or something imposed upon the world?
  - deleted 9y ago
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colordrops 9y ago
Have you ever considered that objective reality is seated in consciousness rather than the other way around? Look into Plato's allegory of the cave. The world around you is actually a simulation created in your brain by synthesizing inputs from your sensory organs - you aren't experiencing it directly. That model includes the conception that you have a brain and sensory organs which simulate an objective reality. In other words, the possibility that objective reality stems from the subjective world, i.e. the mind, is not an absurd assertion.
- eivarv 9y ago
  Just to nitpick: Wouldn't this by definition make it non-objective? I would think the objective reality in your explanation would be what your sensory organs are reacting to, not what you perceive.
  - colordrops 9y ago
    Yes I've thought of this but didn't want to complicate things. My current stance is that reality is dualistic and both subjective and objective are symbiotic and can't exist without the other.
    - eivarv 9y ago
      Why do you believe this to be the case?
      - sova 9y ago
        Just to add to the discussion: Subject would be Perceiver, and Object would be Perceived. Are they actually capable of being separated?
        eivarv 9y ago
        Why should we assume that they are not?
red75prime 9y ago
It's other way around. The existence of our egos makes the claim that we are more than dirt true.
- CuriouslyC 9y ago
  Consider the possibility that you are underestimating the wonder of dirt.
westmeal 9y ago
While I agree with your statement it's hard to actually prove.
CuriouslyC 9y ago
How do you know? Where is your proof? If matter is all there is, that means either you deny the existence of consciousness (which is an untenable position), or you believe that it arises out of nothing (which requires a "magical" mechanism).
- deleted 9y ago
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atom-morgan 9y ago
Take mushrooms.
- thevardanian 9y ago
  They just play with the nervous system and jumble up the brain chemistry. You ascribing those experiences as something supernatural, or spiritual is the problem. The experience is just that. A fleeting experience. To constantly demand an experience over and over again, or to ascribe certain experiences some great importance is just you interpreting those experiences. Everyday life is just as "spiritual" as anything else. It is the newness, and uniqueness that you demand. This uniqueness of experience is only demanded by the knowledge that you have. Otherwise you have no way of telling yourself that it is a unique experience. As each moment in life is a unique moment. There's nothing really spiritual about it. There's nothing really special about it. It's the value that you ascribe to it, through the knowledge that you have which makes it "special".
  - atom-morgan 9y ago
    > The experience is just that. A fleeting experience. I don't know what it is. I'm open to multiple possibilities. Either way, you don't know.
    - thevardanian 9y ago
      All I'm pointing out is that knowing is the only thing that is there. The experiencing structure is only the knowledge that is there of the experience. Otherwise if knowledge wasn't there you wouldn't know what you are experiencing, or when you're experiencing it.
johndoe489 9y ago
Let's not even get into "matter" and modern science which already undermines the notion that things are solid... Let's just get to the point: If EVERYTHING in the universe, everything in reality is "matter"... then what does "matter" mean anymore? It may as well be magic. Harry Potter material. No difference. Because this "matter" exists in nothing. You are in a building, in a city, in a country, in a continent, on planet Earth, in solar system, itself floating in a galaxy, itself floating in the "universe" ... itself floating in ... what? Nothing. At which point you call it matter, I could call it "consciousness" (in the author Bernardo Kastrup's meaning then, as a underlying field to everything), some may call it "god". We can also just call it magic. Poof! Here we are. PS: Also see The mental Universe http://deanradin.com/evidence/Henry2005Nature.pdf http://deanradin.com/evidence/Henry2005Nature.pdf The Physicalist Worldview as Neurotic Ego-Defense Mechanism https://www.instapaper.com/read/811142201 https://www.instapaper.com/read/811142201

sjeohp 9y ago

No. the universe isn't math. The universe is matter. Math is a part of the universe. Therefore math is simply material. Nothing more, nothing less.

thevardanian 9y ago
Math isn't anything but matter. Math is just another thought construct. A powerful thought construct, but a thought construct nonetheless. As a thought construct it too is material. The electronic impulses on you computer are no different than the ones in your brain. So yes. Math is also a material manifestation. Life is a material manifestation. Thought is a material manifestation. The problem is with you trying to separate yourself from matter, but the very thing you're using to create that separation is thought. It is the very thing you're trying to get away from, and so you cannot exist separate from thought by using thought. It is a futile and empty game.
- Sawamara 9y ago
  Ideas are not material. Even if they are stored in material brains. Especially not when they can be independently rediscovered without having any trace of them stored anywhere.
  - narag 9y ago
    Ideas are not material, but thevardanian has a point in the context of this thread. Unless you believe in some kind of supernatural force, all you have is matter and matter-based thought. Ideas are not material but they still need a brain to be held. And a very conscious one. About rediscovering, you can simply argue that ideas are matter properties so an intelligent being can recognize them.
    - thevardanian 9y ago
      You can not distinguish ideas from material reality. That is sensory perception, and your ideas that result are basically the accumulation of material structures, or simply knowledge. So ideas are not anything more than the knowledge that you have which interprets, and reinterprets the sensory perception.
      - language 9y ago
        Is difference (the distinction in question) something intrinsic to the world, or something imposed upon the world?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

colordrops 9y ago

Have you ever considered that objective reality is seated in consciousness rather than the other way around? Look into Plato's allegory of the cave. The world around you is actually a simulation created in your brain by synthesizing inputs from your sensory organs - you aren't experiencing it directly. That model includes the conception that you have a brain and sensory organs which simulate an objective reality. In other words, the possibility that objective reality stems from the subjective world, i.e. the mind, is not an absurd assertion.

eivarv 9y ago
Just to nitpick: Wouldn't this by definition make it non-objective? I would think the objective reality in your explanation would be what your sensory organs are reacting to, not what you perceive.
- colordrops 9y ago
  Yes I've thought of this but didn't want to complicate things. My current stance is that reality is dualistic and both subjective and objective are symbiotic and can't exist without the other.
  - eivarv 9y ago
    Why do you believe this to be the case?
    - sova 9y ago
      Just to add to the discussion: Subject would be Perceiver, and Object would be Perceived. Are they actually capable of being separated?
      - eivarv 9y ago
        Why should we assume that they are not?

red75prime 9y ago

It's other way around. The existence of our egos makes the claim that we are more than dirt true.

CuriouslyC 9y ago
Consider the possibility that you are underestimating the wonder of dirt.

westmeal 9y ago

While I agree with your statement it's hard to actually prove.

CuriouslyC 9y ago

How do you know? Where is your proof? If matter is all there is, that means either you deny the existence of consciousness (which is an untenable position), or you believe that it arises out of nothing (which requires a "magical" mechanism).

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

atom-morgan 9y ago

Take mushrooms.

thevardanian 9y ago
They just play with the nervous system and jumble up the brain chemistry. You ascribing those experiences as something supernatural, or spiritual is the problem. The experience is just that. A fleeting experience. To constantly demand an experience over and over again, or to ascribe certain experiences some great importance is just you interpreting those experiences. Everyday life is just as "spiritual" as anything else. It is the newness, and uniqueness that you demand. This uniqueness of experience is only demanded by the knowledge that you have. Otherwise you have no way of telling yourself that it is a unique experience. As each moment in life is a unique moment. There's nothing really spiritual about it. There's nothing really special about it. It's the value that you ascribe to it, through the knowledge that you have which makes it "special".
- atom-morgan 9y ago
  > The experience is just that. A fleeting experience. I don't know what it is. I'm open to multiple possibilities. Either way, you don't know.
  - thevardanian 9y ago
    All I'm pointing out is that knowing is the only thing that is there. The experiencing structure is only the knowledge that is there of the experience. Otherwise if knowledge wasn't there you wouldn't know what you are experiencing, or when you're experiencing it.

johndoe489 9y ago

Let's not even get into "matter" and modern science which already undermines the notion that things are solid... Let's just get to the point: If EVERYTHING in the universe, everything in reality is "matter"... then what does "matter" mean anymore? It may as well be magic. Harry Potter material. No difference. Because this "matter" exists in nothing. You are in a building, in a city, in a country, in a continent, on planet Earth, in solar system, itself floating in a galaxy, itself floating in the "universe" ... itself floating in ... what? Nothing. At which point you call it matter, I could call it "consciousness" (in the author Bernardo Kastrup's meaning then, as a underlying field to everything), some may call it "god". We can also just call it magic. Poof! Here we are. PS: Also see The mental Universe http://deanradin.com/evidence/Henry2005Nature.pdf http://deanradin.com/evidence/Henry2005Nature.pdf The Physicalist Worldview as Neurotic Ego-Defense Mechanism https://www.instapaper.com/read/811142201 https://www.instapaper.com/read/811142201