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China's fast descent into totalitarianism is fascinating and scary. One can easily replace 'bitcoin executives' with 'foreign executives' or 'foreign assets' a

China's fast descent into totalitarianism is fascinating and scary. One can easily replace 'bitcoin executives' with 'foreign executives' or 'foreign assets' and see where this is going. I wonder if those companies that choose to outsource all the jobs in their country to China realized what they've done.

dilap 9y ago
honest question, hasn't it been totalitarian for like the past 70 years?
- synicalx 9y ago
  Yes, yes it has. I'll never understand why people are perpetually surprised when China bans X, or rounds up people for doing Y.
- est 9y ago
  More like 2000 years of totalitarian.
  - B1FF_PSUVM 9y ago
    If you mix up monarchy, empire, dictatorship, etc. all in the same bucket and call everything 'totalitarian', our ability to think about politics gets rather reduced. It's even anachronistic, the concept itself is recent: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarianism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarianism
acjohnson55 9y ago
Has China ever not been a totalitarian state?
- mirimir 9y ago
  There was some democracy in the late 1800s to early 1900s. But it didn't gel with the Confucian ethos. Stephenson's Diamond Age is actually pretty informative.
  - kobeya 9y ago
    This is incorrect. There was no period of Chinese democracy during that time.
    - mirimir 9y ago
      1909 - Provincial Assembly elections 1912 - National Assembly elections
      - kobeya 9y ago
        The first was a last ditch effort by the Qing dynasty to retain power with the election of powerless feel-good provincial assemblies. Even if they had real authority, which they did not, only half a percent of the populace had franchise. Not a democracy by any means. The 1912 election was for the Nationalists upon overthrowing the imperial system. However China transitioned into a period of warlord rule immediately and the National Assembly never had any control over anything except in theory on paper until Taiwan transitioned to democracy in the 80’s and 90’s.
        mirimir 9y ago
        OK, thanks. So not really any broad democracy, ever.
    - CamTin 9y ago
      This is correct. Chinese Democracy was released in 2008. https://www.amazon.com/Chinese-Democracy-Guns-N-Roses/dp/B0037BBKIK https://www.amazon.com/Chinese-Democracy-Guns-N-Roses/dp/B00...
CodeWriter23 9y ago
This is more totalitarian than crushing a citizen in a public square with a tank?
- tinfins 9y ago
  Tank man wasn't crushed, FYI.
  - a_bonobo 9y ago
    At least 202 people were killed on that day. Dong Xiaojun, Lin Renfu, Wang Peiwen, Tian Daomin, are among those identified who have been crushed by tanks. Older list: http://www.hrichina.org/en/list-155-victims-beijing-massacre http://www.hrichina.org/en/list-155-victims-beijing-massacre
  - aaron695 9y ago
    No one knows what happened to tank man. More troubling is you don't seem to know what happened in Tiananmen square, are you in China? https://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/jun/02/china.johngittings https://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/jun/02/china.johngitt...
    - lazyasciiart 9y ago
      That assumption doesn't seem to be very well supported by the comment you are responding to - what makes you think they don't know what happened in Tiananmen?
      - linkregister 9y ago
        It's more charitable than "OP made an unsupported assertion in order to win promotion of their viewpoint."
        lazyasciiart 9y ago
        It's a lot less charitable than "OP was probably referring to the fact that video evidence shows tank guy being pulled away out of sight before the tanks continued past the point where he had been standing, rather than showing the tanks just rolling over him as that comment kind of implied". If you're going to be very careful to correct people who assert that the guy wasn't crushed, you need to jump on people who say he was crushed too, or you look like you're using the argument as an excuse to attack someone rather than being deeply invested in correctness.
cltsang 9y ago
I think by outsourcing to China or entering the Chinese market, those companies are making a conscious decision to accept the risk, which is that what is perfectly legal and fine today can suddenly be illegal and hated tomorrow. Also, you can't expect any fair fight in China. Quanxi and lobbying the established politicians and tycoons is just part of any business.
indubitable 9y ago
I think people tend to gloss over the fact that China has a population of more than 1.4 billion people in a land area that's slightly smaller than the US, multiple territories in outright revolt, ongoing territorial conflict, some cities that are approaching inhospitability due to environmental damage, and our increasingly aggressive nation is something less than friendly with them. I think one thing causing the apparent increase in political discontent in the US is the increasing metaphorical distance between congress and the people. Now imagine if you increased our population by more than 400%, had Hawaii declaring independence, and various states trying to separate either to go completely independent or join Mexico or Canada. And now of imagine that a coalition of China, Russia, Iran and other unfriendly nations were constantly posturing towards an invasion of Mexico which would put them right at our doorstep while their motherland remains far out of reach. I'm in no way defending China, but I think it's safe to say that the level of authoritarianism we would respond with if we hit even a fraction of the issues they're facing would be unlike anything the world has ever seen. Our current political systems and technologies, regardless of specific political ideology, do not scale well. That said there is one macabre issue that benefits China. About 50 years ago Chinese were starving to death by the tens of millions. While perhaps controversial, I think contentedness paradoxically breeds discontent. Consider in the US that much of the political discontent is heavily centered at some of the most privileged areas in the nation. We can wax poetic about justice and the nuance of social interaction. People struggling to just get by have more immediate issues to deal with. China's successful industrialization of their nation is already producing an increasingly large contented class to whom the struggles China has had are as personally familiar to them as the lynchings or Cold War of US history are to us. That newfounded contented class is likely to spark discontent towards the very actions that provided their luxury - and China will have to manage that somehow.
- canoebuilder 9y ago
  >had Hawaii declaring independence, and various states trying to separate either to go completely independent or join Mexico or Canada. And now of imagine that a coalition of China, Russia, Iran and other unfriendly nations were constantly posturing towards an invasion of Mexico Can you map these metaphors to their counterparts in China?

dilap 9y ago

honest question, hasn't it been totalitarian for like the past 70 years?

synicalx 9y ago
Yes, yes it has. I'll never understand why people are perpetually surprised when China bans X, or rounds up people for doing Y.
est 9y ago
More like 2000 years of totalitarian.
- B1FF_PSUVM 9y ago
  If you mix up monarchy, empire, dictatorship, etc. all in the same bucket and call everything 'totalitarian', our ability to think about politics gets rather reduced. It's even anachronistic, the concept itself is recent: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarianism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarianism

acjohnson55 9y ago

Has China ever not been a totalitarian state?

mirimir 9y ago
There was some democracy in the late 1800s to early 1900s. But it didn't gel with the Confucian ethos. Stephenson's Diamond Age is actually pretty informative.
- kobeya 9y ago
  This is incorrect. There was no period of Chinese democracy during that time.
  - mirimir 9y ago
    1909 - Provincial Assembly elections 1912 - National Assembly elections
    - kobeya 9y ago
      The first was a last ditch effort by the Qing dynasty to retain power with the election of powerless feel-good provincial assemblies. Even if they had real authority, which they did not, only half a percent of the populace had franchise. Not a democracy by any means. The 1912 election was for the Nationalists upon overthrowing the imperial system. However China transitioned into a period of warlord rule immediately and the National Assembly never had any control over anything except in theory on paper until Taiwan transitioned to democracy in the 80’s and 90’s.
      - mirimir 9y ago
        OK, thanks. So not really any broad democracy, ever.
  - CamTin 9y ago
    This is correct. Chinese Democracy was released in 2008. https://www.amazon.com/Chinese-Democracy-Guns-N-Roses/dp/B0037BBKIK https://www.amazon.com/Chinese-Democracy-Guns-N-Roses/dp/B00...

CodeWriter23 9y ago

This is more totalitarian than crushing a citizen in a public square with a tank?

tinfins 9y ago
Tank man wasn't crushed, FYI.
- a_bonobo 9y ago
  At least 202 people were killed on that day. Dong Xiaojun, Lin Renfu, Wang Peiwen, Tian Daomin, are among those identified who have been crushed by tanks. Older list: http://www.hrichina.org/en/list-155-victims-beijing-massacre http://www.hrichina.org/en/list-155-victims-beijing-massacre
- aaron695 9y ago
  No one knows what happened to tank man. More troubling is you don't seem to know what happened in Tiananmen square, are you in China? https://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/jun/02/china.johngittings https://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/jun/02/china.johngitt...
  - lazyasciiart 9y ago
    That assumption doesn't seem to be very well supported by the comment you are responding to - what makes you think they don't know what happened in Tiananmen?
    - linkregister 9y ago
      It's more charitable than "OP made an unsupported assertion in order to win promotion of their viewpoint."
      - lazyasciiart 9y ago
        It's a lot less charitable than "OP was probably referring to the fact that video evidence shows tank guy being pulled away out of sight before the tanks continued past the point where he had been standing, rather than showing the tanks just rolling over him as that comment kind of implied". If you're going to be very careful to correct people who assert that the guy wasn't crushed, you need to jump on people who say he was crushed too, or you look like you're using the argument as an excuse to attack someone rather than being deeply invested in correctness.

cltsang 9y ago

I think by outsourcing to China or entering the Chinese market, those companies are making a conscious decision to accept the risk, which is that what is perfectly legal and fine today can suddenly be illegal and hated tomorrow. Also, you can't expect any fair fight in China. Quanxi and lobbying the established politicians and tycoons is just part of any business.

indubitable 9y ago

I think people tend to gloss over the fact that China has a population of more than 1.4 billion people in a land area that's slightly smaller than the US, multiple territories in outright revolt, ongoing territorial conflict, some cities that are approaching inhospitability due to environmental damage, and our increasingly aggressive nation is something less than friendly with them. I think one thing causing the apparent increase in political discontent in the US is the increasing metaphorical distance between congress and the people. Now imagine if you increased our population by more than 400%, had Hawaii declaring independence, and various states trying to separate either to go completely independent or join Mexico or Canada. And now of imagine that a coalition of China, Russia, Iran and other unfriendly nations were constantly posturing towards an invasion of Mexico which would put them right at our doorstep while their motherland remains far out of reach. I'm in no way defending China, but I think it's safe to say that the level of authoritarianism we would respond with if we hit even a fraction of the issues they're facing would be unlike anything the world has ever seen. Our current political systems and technologies, regardless of specific political ideology, do not scale well. That said there is one macabre issue that benefits China. About 50 years ago Chinese were starving to death by the tens of millions. While perhaps controversial, I think contentedness paradoxically breeds discontent. Consider in the US that much of the political discontent is heavily centered at some of the most privileged areas in the nation. We can wax poetic about justice and the nuance of social interaction. People struggling to just get by have more immediate issues to deal with. China's successful industrialization of their nation is already producing an increasingly large contented class to whom the struggles China has had are as personally familiar to them as the lynchings or Cold War of US history are to us. That newfounded contented class is likely to spark discontent towards the very actions that provided their luxury - and China will have to manage that somehow.

canoebuilder 9y ago
>had Hawaii declaring independence, and various states trying to separate either to go completely independent or join Mexico or Canada. And now of imagine that a coalition of China, Russia, Iran and other unfriendly nations were constantly posturing towards an invasion of Mexico Can you map these metaphors to their counterparts in China?