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Facebook is most likely a net negative in this world. I don't know if it's always been true, but I think it is now. I personally didn't realize how strong my fe

Facebook is most likely a net negative in this world. I don't know if it's always been true, but I think it is now. I personally didn't realize how strong my feelings were until one of their recruiters contacted me. I'm far from a 'values' driven employee, but this was by far the easiest refusal of my career.

robbrown451 9y ago
I agree it is a net negative, but it kind of needs to be clarified because if Facebook didn't exist, it would be someone else. Maybe MySpace would have evolved to fill the niche, or maybe another company, or maybe even an open solution. I tend to think that it would be quite possible for a company to fill the Facebook niche in a much more positive way, while still making a profit. But they certainly won't be able to do it as long as Facebook is there.
- ben_jones 9y ago
  Was there really such a NEED for fb to exist that it was inevitable?!
  - adiabatty 9y ago
    People want to keep in touch with other people? Yeah, I think so.
    - ben_jones 9y ago
      TIL Facebook is the first human invention that lets you keep in touch with others.
      - detaro 9y ago
        Please refrain from such blatant mischaracterizations, they really don't help the discussion.
      - romwell 9y ago
        Yup, for that reasons you still write letter with pen and paper, and print out photos when you want to show them to someone who doesn't live in the same city as you do. There's clearly no value in sharing digital photographs, videos and links with other people with ability to get feedback from them. By extension, there's no need for HN, right?
  - privaroonie 9y ago
    Back in the early days of the web, I always wanted an easy way to have a personal "presence" online, to stay in touch with friends and have a sort of virtual "contact list". Friendster (in its original incantation) was probably the best realization of that. I'd say that sort of thing was more or less needed & inevitable, at least at the time. Facebook originally started as a "better" version Friendster (and its successor, MySpace). Today, Facebook is nothing like those systems of the past. It's now a horribly gamified, ad-saturated UX anti-pattern nightmare. I'm pretty sure that was also more or less inevitable, but for different reasons.
    - CaptSpify 9y ago
      How do things like blogs and rss feeds not fill this gap? Is it simply ease of setup/use?
      - arvinsim 9y ago
        Not all users are tech savvy. Some people just want one site to be their go-to when connecting with other users.
      - Mediterraneo10 9y ago
        Most users apparently aren’t tech-savvy enough to use an RSS reader that requires manually adding feeds. It has been noted how the demise of Google Reader played a major role in the demise of blogs overall, since so many of those following blogs could only use that one single portal. Today, plenty of blogs still offer RSS feeds, but without Google Reader around to easily allow people to subscribe to them, they just aren’t being used as much. Also, because nowadays blog owners feel such pressure to monetize, RSS feeds tend to be hidden and discouraged because they could allow users to read content without viewing advertisements. I know one cranky and avaricious blog owner who will automatically ban you from his site if you point out that the site has an RSS feed.
      - jasode 9y ago
        >How do things like blogs and rss feeds not fill this gap? Things like a standard WordPress/Geocities blog or RSS feed do not have an address book or shared group calendar. Also, think about the "record locator" for a WordPress site or RSS: it's a _url_. In contrast, the "record locator" for Facebook friends is a [person's real name] or [phone number] or [email address]. It should be obvious that the ramifications of those differences are profound. E.g. a new user signs up for Facebook, then uploads her contact listing, and then instantly sees suggested contacts including family members, coworkers, old high school & college buddies. Yes, the sign up steps for Facebook is easier than WordPress but beyond that, the social dynamics of discovering other accounts and sharing are more optimized for the typical ~2 billion users.
  - robbrown451 9y ago
    Need is a strong term. But it doesn't have to be needed, it only has to be desired. And yes I think a way to make communication between acquaintances more efficient is desired.
  - tluyben2 9y ago
    I think so; not because it is so great but because it's more 'cheap tv' for people. Just stare at videos and how great your 'friends' are doing. Hype yourself up and feel your did something today as you wrote something or posted something and got more than your own like. My contacts are 90% people I know well and see regularly (a lot of them smart people) and yet my timeline feels fake and plastic; it is just easy watching and chewinggum for the eyes. All the cool pages and feeds catered to their audience, making headlines more sensational but providing nothing in terms of article behind it; who wants to actually read that stuff right? You can tell your mates that the apocalypse is coming this Saturday and noone will ask you what/why anyway and the headlines told you so. It is some crazy ultimate circle jerk and echo chamber, made for incredibly easy consumption (the latter getting worse). For countries where deep thought about some subjects is forbidden, I guess it is worse. I stopped using Facebook; only use messenger and occasionally upvote someone's birthday. But yes I believe it was and is inevitable because we are human and it is in us to consume mostly.
    - 659087 9y ago
      > only use messenger and occasionally upvote someone's birthday If someone means little enough to you that this is how you wish them a happy birthday, maybe you shouldn't bother at all. If they mean something to you, pick up a phone and call them. All you're accomplishing, is helping Facebook encourage that person to continue using it by giving them that little dopamine hit from your "upvote". If people looked at Facebook "birthday wishes" for what they are, they'd be seen as a negative. "This person put in as much effort wishing me happy birthday as random people on reddit do upvoting cat memes"
      - iamatworknow 9y ago
        Removing my birthday from facebook a few years back was a very enlightening experience. I went from ~100 people wishing me a happy birthday to probably 5.
      - tluyben2 9y ago
        You have a good point and it was more to say I don't really use it anymore, so maybe bad example but; > If they mean something to you, pick up a phone and call them that is nonsense imho; calling is also nothing (I also don't see the difference between calling and chatting) (ah, I mean so much to you, you couldn't be bothered to get off your couch). If they mean something you meet them; people important to me I fly out to go to their birthdays, weddings, divorces and funerals. But yes you have do have a good point in general which I agree with.
bitwize 9y ago
You want to talk easy refusals? I just had a recruiter come to me with a position at Monsanto.
- ionised 9y ago
  I had one come to me with a position at Elsevier. Instant no from me.
mirimir 9y ago
In the Guardian article[0], recently posted on HN[1], Franklin Foer argues: > By the time Zuckerberg began extolling the virtues of hacking, he had stripped the name of most of its original meaning and distilled it into a managerial philosophy that contains barely a hint of rebelliousness. I rather disagree. Indeed, I believe that Facebook has taken hacking to an extreme level. As the article argues, they're against free will. Not only are they're compromising users' privacy, they're arguing against privacy as a legitimate option. Because there's arguably no integrity in it: > “The days of you having a different image for your work friends or co-workers and for the other people you know are probably coming to an end pretty quickly,” Zuckerberg has said. “Having two identities for yourself is an example of a lack of integrity.” That's an extremely authoritarian, "we have the Truth, you are Wrong, and we will Prevail", attitude. And it totally ignores power imbalances, where having different images in different contexts is the only possibility for any freedom. Compartmentalization with multiple personas is essential for survival in a pervasively authoritarian world.[2] 0) https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/sep/19/facebooks-war-on-free-will https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/sep/19/facebooks... 1) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15284020 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15284020 2) https://www.ivpn.net/privacy-guides/online-privacy-through-opsec-and-compartmentalization-part-1 https://www.ivpn.net/privacy-guides/online-privacy-through-o...
- mirimir 9y ago
  Listen to "Life During Wartime" while thinking on this :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyzkB-9rxOY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyzkB-9rxOY
thewhitetulip 9y ago
True thing. A friend of friend was banned from facebook for 7 days just because he posted anti government thing. This happened in India!

robbrown451 9y ago

I agree it is a net negative, but it kind of needs to be clarified because if Facebook didn't exist, it would be someone else. Maybe MySpace would have evolved to fill the niche, or maybe another company, or maybe even an open solution. I tend to think that it would be quite possible for a company to fill the Facebook niche in a much more positive way, while still making a profit. But they certainly won't be able to do it as long as Facebook is there.

ben_jones 9y ago
Was there really such a NEED for fb to exist that it was inevitable?!
- adiabatty 9y ago
  People want to keep in touch with other people? Yeah, I think so.
  - ben_jones 9y ago
    TIL Facebook is the first human invention that lets you keep in touch with others.
    - detaro 9y ago
      Please refrain from such blatant mischaracterizations, they really don't help the discussion.
    - romwell 9y ago
      Yup, for that reasons you still write letter with pen and paper, and print out photos when you want to show them to someone who doesn't live in the same city as you do. There's clearly no value in sharing digital photographs, videos and links with other people with ability to get feedback from them. By extension, there's no need for HN, right?
- privaroonie 9y ago
  Back in the early days of the web, I always wanted an easy way to have a personal "presence" online, to stay in touch with friends and have a sort of virtual "contact list". Friendster (in its original incantation) was probably the best realization of that. I'd say that sort of thing was more or less needed & inevitable, at least at the time. Facebook originally started as a "better" version Friendster (and its successor, MySpace). Today, Facebook is nothing like those systems of the past. It's now a horribly gamified, ad-saturated UX anti-pattern nightmare. I'm pretty sure that was also more or less inevitable, but for different reasons.
  - CaptSpify 9y ago
    How do things like blogs and rss feeds not fill this gap? Is it simply ease of setup/use?
    - arvinsim 9y ago
      Not all users are tech savvy. Some people just want one site to be their go-to when connecting with other users.
    - Mediterraneo10 9y ago
      Most users apparently aren’t tech-savvy enough to use an RSS reader that requires manually adding feeds. It has been noted how the demise of Google Reader played a major role in the demise of blogs overall, since so many of those following blogs could only use that one single portal. Today, plenty of blogs still offer RSS feeds, but without Google Reader around to easily allow people to subscribe to them, they just aren’t being used as much. Also, because nowadays blog owners feel such pressure to monetize, RSS feeds tend to be hidden and discouraged because they could allow users to read content without viewing advertisements. I know one cranky and avaricious blog owner who will automatically ban you from his site if you point out that the site has an RSS feed.
    - jasode 9y ago
      >How do things like blogs and rss feeds not fill this gap? Things like a standard WordPress/Geocities blog or RSS feed do not have an address book or shared group calendar. Also, think about the "record locator" for a WordPress site or RSS: it's a _url_. In contrast, the "record locator" for Facebook friends is a [person's real name] or [phone number] or [email address]. It should be obvious that the ramifications of those differences are profound. E.g. a new user signs up for Facebook, then uploads her contact listing, and then instantly sees suggested contacts including family members, coworkers, old high school & college buddies. Yes, the sign up steps for Facebook is easier than WordPress but beyond that, the social dynamics of discovering other accounts and sharing are more optimized for the typical ~2 billion users.
- robbrown451 9y ago
  Need is a strong term. But it doesn't have to be needed, it only has to be desired. And yes I think a way to make communication between acquaintances more efficient is desired.
- tluyben2 9y ago
  I think so; not because it is so great but because it's more 'cheap tv' for people. Just stare at videos and how great your 'friends' are doing. Hype yourself up and feel your did something today as you wrote something or posted something and got more than your own like. My contacts are 90% people I know well and see regularly (a lot of them smart people) and yet my timeline feels fake and plastic; it is just easy watching and chewinggum for the eyes. All the cool pages and feeds catered to their audience, making headlines more sensational but providing nothing in terms of article behind it; who wants to actually read that stuff right? You can tell your mates that the apocalypse is coming this Saturday and noone will ask you what/why anyway and the headlines told you so. It is some crazy ultimate circle jerk and echo chamber, made for incredibly easy consumption (the latter getting worse). For countries where deep thought about some subjects is forbidden, I guess it is worse. I stopped using Facebook; only use messenger and occasionally upvote someone's birthday. But yes I believe it was and is inevitable because we are human and it is in us to consume mostly.
  - 659087 9y ago
    > only use messenger and occasionally upvote someone's birthday If someone means little enough to you that this is how you wish them a happy birthday, maybe you shouldn't bother at all. If they mean something to you, pick up a phone and call them. All you're accomplishing, is helping Facebook encourage that person to continue using it by giving them that little dopamine hit from your "upvote". If people looked at Facebook "birthday wishes" for what they are, they'd be seen as a negative. "This person put in as much effort wishing me happy birthday as random people on reddit do upvoting cat memes"
    - iamatworknow 9y ago
      Removing my birthday from facebook a few years back was a very enlightening experience. I went from ~100 people wishing me a happy birthday to probably 5.
    - tluyben2 9y ago
      You have a good point and it was more to say I don't really use it anymore, so maybe bad example but; > If they mean something to you, pick up a phone and call them that is nonsense imho; calling is also nothing (I also don't see the difference between calling and chatting) (ah, I mean so much to you, you couldn't be bothered to get off your couch). If they mean something you meet them; people important to me I fly out to go to their birthdays, weddings, divorces and funerals. But yes you have do have a good point in general which I agree with.

bitwize 9y ago

You want to talk easy refusals? I just had a recruiter come to me with a position at Monsanto.

ionised 9y ago
I had one come to me with a position at Elsevier. Instant no from me.

mirimir 9y ago

In the Guardian article[0], recently posted on HN[1], Franklin Foer argues: > By the time Zuckerberg began extolling the virtues of hacking, he had stripped the name of most of its original meaning and distilled it into a managerial philosophy that contains barely a hint of rebelliousness. I rather disagree. Indeed, I believe that Facebook has taken hacking to an extreme level. As the article argues, they're against free will. Not only are they're compromising users' privacy, they're arguing against privacy as a legitimate option. Because there's arguably no integrity in it: > “The days of you having a different image for your work friends or co-workers and for the other people you know are probably coming to an end pretty quickly,” Zuckerberg has said. “Having two identities for yourself is an example of a lack of integrity.” That's an extremely authoritarian, "we have the Truth, you are Wrong, and we will Prevail", attitude. And it totally ignores power imbalances, where having different images in different contexts is the only possibility for any freedom. Compartmentalization with multiple personas is essential for survival in a pervasively authoritarian world.[2] 0) https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/sep/19/facebooks-war-on-free-will https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/sep/19/facebooks... 1) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15284020 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15284020 2) https://www.ivpn.net/privacy-guides/online-privacy-through-opsec-and-compartmentalization-part-1 https://www.ivpn.net/privacy-guides/online-privacy-through-o...

mirimir 9y ago
Listen to "Life During Wartime" while thinking on this :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyzkB-9rxOY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyzkB-9rxOY

thewhitetulip 9y ago

True thing. A friend of friend was banned from facebook for 7 days just because he posted anti government thing. This happened in India!