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Water is a tricky thing. Take almonds for example. One almond takes about 4 liters of water to produce. With 1.6 billion pounds of almonds grown per year we're

Water is a tricky thing. Take almonds for example. One almond takes about 4 liters of water to produce. With 1.6 billion pounds of almonds grown per year we're looking at almost 2.5 trillion liters of water. This is just one nut. Pistachios and walnuts use similar amounts of water, so do other things we eat like broccoli. I blame Coca-Cola and their ilk for the obesity epidemic, but water shortages are more caused by farming and climate change than they are by breweries or bottling plants.

bpicolo 9y ago
> One almond takes about 4 liters of water to produce How long does it take for that water to re-enter the ecosystem in a usable way? Water isn't just destroyed, yeah? Water planning is definitely worthwhile, but seems there are a few other variables in play.
- bzbarsky 9y ago
  > How long does it take for that water to re-enter the ecosystem in a usable way? It depends on where you got the water from. If you got it from a river or lake, probably "until the next time it rains". If you got it from an aquifer, then it depends on how long it takes water to filter down into the aquifer, assuming it can do so at all. > Water isn't just destroyed, yeah? In the case of aquifers it actually can be, effectively. Per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquifer#Human_dependence_on_groundwater https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquifer#Human_dependence_on_gr... second paragraph: Fresh-water aquifers, especially those with limited recharge by snow or rain, also known as meteoric water, can be over-exploited and depending on the local hydrogeology, may draw in non-potable water or saltwater intrusion from hydraulically connected aquifers or surface water bodies. This can be a serious problem, especially in coastal areas and other areas where aquifer pumping is excessive. In some areas, the ground water can become contaminated by arsenic and other mineral poisons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogallala_Aquifer#Aquifer_water_balance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogallala_Aquifer#Aquifer_water... is a worthwhile read with specific numbers for a specific aquifer that illustrates some of the possible problems. All of which is to say that in some places (and in particular in much of the Western US) water may closer to a non-renewable resource than a renewable one if it comes from an aquifer. At least on years-to-decades timescales.
  - mcguire 9y ago
    An interesting case is the state of Georgia, which periodically makes nose about disputing its boundaries with Alabama and Tennessee, in order to move the boundary far enough to access the water of the Tennessee River. It has been many years since the lakes and resovoirs in northern Georgia have been "full" and I believe the Atlanta metropolitan area users more water normally than it recovers from rain.
- mcguire 9y ago
  Most is lost to evaporation, which rains out in a relatively short time somewhere else. The problem is that the water used frequently comes from either groundwater, leaving users downstream with a deficit, or deep aquifers, which take a very long time to recharge.
- jlebrech 9y ago
  1KG of beef uses 3X as much.
  - hanoz 9y ago
    As one almond?
    - jlebrech 9y ago
      per kg
conanbatt 9y ago
Are the 4 liters of water being shot out to space?
- corpMaverick 9y ago
  Neither in the case of Coca-Cola. Somebody is going to pee that back to the earth.
  - tetromino_ 9y ago
    And depending on the local geology, it will take anywhere between months and thousands of years for that ex-Coke to get to a water body, evaporate, precipitate, and infiltrate back into the aquifer. It's very easy for the rate of extraction of a particular aquifer to exceed the rate of replenishment. According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_conductivity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_conductivity water moves through porous material at rates varying from 300 m/day (mixture of gravel and sand) to 3 mm/day (clay, sandstone). EDIT: arithmetic.
- lholden 9y ago
  Waste water, unless the plant is specifically setup to recycle it's water waste, tends to eventually end up in the ocean. Dumping fresh water in the ocean is reasonably close to shooting it out into space. (Of course nature will reclaim it from the ocean for you over time.)
- mcguire 9y ago
  Commercial desalination is quite expensive. Natural desalination is quite slow and mostly inconvenient.
Alex3917 9y ago
> Pistachios and walnuts use similar amounts of water, so do other things we eat like broccoli. What does this really mean though? In New England we have Walnut trees growing everywhere, and no one is watering them. If anything they're locking water into the soil that would otherwise just evaporate.
- wmil 9y ago
  It means that we grow things in California that have no business growing in California.
- bzbarsky 9y ago
  Looking at https://www.weather.gov/nerfc/normals https://www.weather.gov/nerfc/normals it looks like you'd be hard-pressed to find places in New England that averages less than, say, 30" of rain a year. Problems start when people grow walnuts in places that average 10" a year....
- mcguire 9y ago
  Not on commercial scales. According to the wiki, California's Central valley produces 99% of the commercial crop and the US is the largest exporter and second largest producer. Also, those trees aren't locking water anywhere. They are probably releasing the same amount per tree to evaporation.
- LeifCarrotson 9y ago
  Those walnut trees are growing because of rainwater. They're not a problem. And if farmed nuts we're grown in similar locations, that would also be fine. But most almonds and pistachios are grown in a desert, with water extracted from ground-water aquifers. Without the wells, the almonds would not grow.
  - s0rce 9y ago
    I don't think the central valley of California is classified as a desert, it may be dry in the summer but it's not a desert.
seanalltogether 9y ago
Last time this topic came up, someone mentioned working in a cheese processing plant that used at least 4x as much water as a typical bottling factory. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that paper mills, steel mills, etc also use way more.
zackmorris 9y ago
Same with palm oil. Vast swaths of rainforest are being cleared for palm trees, damaging watersheds and endangering countless species. As a general rule, it's best to get your macronutrients from sustainable sources. In other words, eat peanuts instead of almonds, and eat olives instead of palm or coconut oil (unless you have allergies or other health issue preventing that). Avoid the high-labor, resource-intensive fad foods.
the8472 9y ago
I assume you're specifically talking about farming those in semi-arid or desert climates like california. I think it's not the watering per se that's the problem, it's growing things in a desert without having a sustainable water management plan.
drzaiusapelord 9y ago
Two thoughts: 1. We need food, we don't need soda. So food will always get a priority for resources, thus its heavy water usage more excusable. Farming uses a lot of water, its just a given, and we need farming to survive. Raising beef actually is much more wasteful than almonds, for example. Almost all farming requires large amounts of water. 2. Rural irrigation is a bit different than urban irrigation. They may draw on their own springs and wells or impact less people with water restrictions due to low density rural populations. Plants in or near urban areas can impact millions of people. Worse, urban areas need to be kept clean or hygeine goes out the window then come the superbugs, epidemics, etc. If we ration urban water too strongly in favor of soft drinks, then that means less showering, baths, street cleaning, etc which isn't good for society.
sliverstorm 9y ago
Farming isn't the problem, manufacturing isn't the problem. Water rights & water law is the problem. Nobody pays a fair market price for water, whether ground or rain water, and until then we will continue to see squandering & rampant abuse. The tricky part is ownership. Who owns groundwater? Who owns rainwater?

bpicolo 9y ago

> One almond takes about 4 liters of water to produce How long does it take for that water to re-enter the ecosystem in a usable way? Water isn't just destroyed, yeah? Water planning is definitely worthwhile, but seems there are a few other variables in play.

bzbarsky 9y ago
> How long does it take for that water to re-enter the ecosystem in a usable way? It depends on where you got the water from. If you got it from a river or lake, probably "until the next time it rains". If you got it from an aquifer, then it depends on how long it takes water to filter down into the aquifer, assuming it can do so at all. > Water isn't just destroyed, yeah? In the case of aquifers it actually can be, effectively. Per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquifer#Human_dependence_on_groundwater https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquifer#Human_dependence_on_gr... second paragraph: Fresh-water aquifers, especially those with limited recharge by snow or rain, also known as meteoric water, can be over-exploited and depending on the local hydrogeology, may draw in non-potable water or saltwater intrusion from hydraulically connected aquifers or surface water bodies. This can be a serious problem, especially in coastal areas and other areas where aquifer pumping is excessive. In some areas, the ground water can become contaminated by arsenic and other mineral poisons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogallala_Aquifer#Aquifer_water_balance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogallala_Aquifer#Aquifer_water... is a worthwhile read with specific numbers for a specific aquifer that illustrates some of the possible problems. All of which is to say that in some places (and in particular in much of the Western US) water may closer to a non-renewable resource than a renewable one if it comes from an aquifer. At least on years-to-decades timescales.
- mcguire 9y ago
  An interesting case is the state of Georgia, which periodically makes nose about disputing its boundaries with Alabama and Tennessee, in order to move the boundary far enough to access the water of the Tennessee River. It has been many years since the lakes and resovoirs in northern Georgia have been "full" and I believe the Atlanta metropolitan area users more water normally than it recovers from rain.
mcguire 9y ago
Most is lost to evaporation, which rains out in a relatively short time somewhere else. The problem is that the water used frequently comes from either groundwater, leaving users downstream with a deficit, or deep aquifers, which take a very long time to recharge.
jlebrech 9y ago
1KG of beef uses 3X as much.
- hanoz 9y ago
  As one almond?
  - jlebrech 9y ago
    per kg

conanbatt 9y ago

Are the 4 liters of water being shot out to space?

corpMaverick 9y ago
Neither in the case of Coca-Cola. Somebody is going to pee that back to the earth.
- tetromino_ 9y ago
  And depending on the local geology, it will take anywhere between months and thousands of years for that ex-Coke to get to a water body, evaporate, precipitate, and infiltrate back into the aquifer. It's very easy for the rate of extraction of a particular aquifer to exceed the rate of replenishment. According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_conductivity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_conductivity water moves through porous material at rates varying from 300 m/day (mixture of gravel and sand) to 3 mm/day (clay, sandstone). EDIT: arithmetic.
lholden 9y ago
Waste water, unless the plant is specifically setup to recycle it's water waste, tends to eventually end up in the ocean. Dumping fresh water in the ocean is reasonably close to shooting it out into space. (Of course nature will reclaim it from the ocean for you over time.)
mcguire 9y ago
Commercial desalination is quite expensive. Natural desalination is quite slow and mostly inconvenient.

Alex3917 9y ago

> Pistachios and walnuts use similar amounts of water, so do other things we eat like broccoli. What does this really mean though? In New England we have Walnut trees growing everywhere, and no one is watering them. If anything they're locking water into the soil that would otherwise just evaporate.

wmil 9y ago
It means that we grow things in California that have no business growing in California.
bzbarsky 9y ago
Looking at https://www.weather.gov/nerfc/normals https://www.weather.gov/nerfc/normals it looks like you'd be hard-pressed to find places in New England that averages less than, say, 30" of rain a year. Problems start when people grow walnuts in places that average 10" a year....
mcguire 9y ago
Not on commercial scales. According to the wiki, California's Central valley produces 99% of the commercial crop and the US is the largest exporter and second largest producer. Also, those trees aren't locking water anywhere. They are probably releasing the same amount per tree to evaporation.
LeifCarrotson 9y ago
Those walnut trees are growing because of rainwater. They're not a problem. And if farmed nuts we're grown in similar locations, that would also be fine. But most almonds and pistachios are grown in a desert, with water extracted from ground-water aquifers. Without the wells, the almonds would not grow.
- s0rce 9y ago
  I don't think the central valley of California is classified as a desert, it may be dry in the summer but it's not a desert.

seanalltogether 9y ago

Last time this topic came up, someone mentioned working in a cheese processing plant that used at least 4x as much water as a typical bottling factory. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that paper mills, steel mills, etc also use way more.

zackmorris 9y ago

Same with palm oil. Vast swaths of rainforest are being cleared for palm trees, damaging watersheds and endangering countless species. As a general rule, it's best to get your macronutrients from sustainable sources. In other words, eat peanuts instead of almonds, and eat olives instead of palm or coconut oil (unless you have allergies or other health issue preventing that). Avoid the high-labor, resource-intensive fad foods.

the8472 9y ago

I assume you're specifically talking about farming those in semi-arid or desert climates like california. I think it's not the watering per se that's the problem, it's growing things in a desert without having a sustainable water management plan.

drzaiusapelord 9y ago

Two thoughts: 1. We need food, we don't need soda. So food will always get a priority for resources, thus its heavy water usage more excusable. Farming uses a lot of water, its just a given, and we need farming to survive. Raising beef actually is much more wasteful than almonds, for example. Almost all farming requires large amounts of water. 2. Rural irrigation is a bit different than urban irrigation. They may draw on their own springs and wells or impact less people with water restrictions due to low density rural populations. Plants in or near urban areas can impact millions of people. Worse, urban areas need to be kept clean or hygeine goes out the window then come the superbugs, epidemics, etc. If we ration urban water too strongly in favor of soft drinks, then that means less showering, baths, street cleaning, etc which isn't good for society.

sliverstorm 9y ago

Farming isn't the problem, manufacturing isn't the problem. Water rights & water law is the problem. Nobody pays a fair market price for water, whether ground or rain water, and until then we will continue to see squandering & rampant abuse. The tricky part is ownership. Who owns groundwater? Who owns rainwater?